Should shooting through opponents face be legal?

[BruceyB]

Pre-Burroughs, I don't remember seeing people regularly shoot through their opponents face with the crown of their head. Now, it seems like more and more often guys are using the tactic of "blowing through" an opponent by essentially going head first into the face of their opponent to knock him back so they can get to a low double leg. Usually this ends up with one of both guys having a gash, needing a headwrap, etc. A lot of times it's pretty clear that the attacker knew he was going to cause a head to head collision when they decide to shoot, but because it works and they are likely to take less of the damage, they do it anyway. 16:45 of the Fix/Arujau final is a perfect example.

 

[Simpleman424]

On its face (no pun intended) I understand why people don’t like it and how it could seem malicious to a degree. However, you have these guys that are constantly putting a hand on the mat, crawling and staying low to avoid exposure. Fix is on the edge of the mat, hand down, doing everything he can to keep Vito out (insanely fast) and what’s Vito going to do? Not stay aggressive or keep the pace. Fix, and guys using those tactics are in a sense stalling…hard to not let guys get after it.

[1032004]

I have to laugh when there are calls that both corners complain about

[moodybooty]

Should 28 minute matches be legal?

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, BruceyB said:

Pre-Burroughs, I don't remember seeing people regularly shoot through their opponents face with the crown of their head. Now, it seems like more and more often guys are using the tactic of "blowing through" an opponent by essentially going head first into the face of their opponent to knock him back so they can get to a low double leg. Usually this ends up with one of both guys having a gash, needing a headwrap, etc. A lot of times it's pretty clear that the attacker knew he was going to cause a head to head collision when they decide to shoot, but because it works and they are likely to take less of the damage, they do it anyway. 16:45 of the Fix/Arujau final is a perfect example.

 

No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this IMO, I don't think it started with JB, I think it's been around forever and I think as long as you're using your head and hands as your first line of defense...I don't know what you're supposed to do. It's so hard to get guys out of position, ideally, you'd plant your head in his cheat and shoot, but guys are blocking with their head.

 

There may be some cases that are egregious, but the one at 16:45 was nothing. Just a good shot. Cael did that, Joe Williams did that, Johnny Hendricks and Kyle Snyder...and here Vito(just one guy from most of the top Colleges so this doesn't turn into another complaint about on school). 

 

Blast double. Sometimes, you get blasted in the dome. It happens. 

[scourge165]

6 hours ago, Simpleman424 said:

On its face (no pun intended) I understand why people don’t like it and how it could seem malicious to a degree. However, you have these guys that are constantly putting a hand on the mat, crawling and staying low to avoid exposure. Fix is on the edge of the mat, hand down, doing everything he can to keep Vito out (insanely fast) and what’s Vito going to do? Not stay aggressive or keep the pace. Fix, and guys using those tactics are in a sense stalling…hard to not let guys get after it.

EXACTLY! The 3 point stance...there's nothing you can do. 

Also, that Purler style of Wrestling, you're going to end up leaking from the head once in a while. Just part of the sport. 

[Winners Circle]

13 hours ago, Simpleman424 said:

On its face (no pun intended) I understand why people don’t like it and how it could seem malicious to a degree. However, you have these guys that are constantly putting a hand on the mat, crawling and staying low to avoid exposure. Fix is on the edge of the mat, hand down, doing everything he can to keep Vito out (insanely fast) and what’s Vito going to do? Not stay aggressive or keep the pace. Fix, and guys using those tactics are in a sense stalling…hard to not let guys get after it.

I agree with most of this. Dropping to a knee, stalling. But, hand on the mat, not stalling.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

28 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

I agree with most of this. Dropping to a knee, stalling. But, hand on the mat, not stalling.

Very difficult to legislate the "dropping to a knee is stalling" thing, especially in NCAA/NFHS rules.

[Simpleman424]

3 hours ago, Winners Circle said:

I agree with most of this. Dropping to a knee, stalling. But, hand on the mat, not stalling.

Problem is the majority of guys posting a hand are also dropping the knee too…scooting around and trying to look and feel cool doing it. The ones that aren’t know they aren’t quick enough to get the legs back if attacked. Either way in both instances you’re low to the mat and usually not being active. We all know the making it look like you’re doing something when you’re not game…just slowing that guy or buying time for your attack. I get both sides…I’m just fine with guys running through that kind of defensive stand.

[OMW]

Head, hands, hips - somethings gotta give if someone's looking to score on a shot...

[BruceyB]

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Very difficult to legislate the "dropping to a knee is stalling" thing, especially in NCAA/NFHS rules.

Why? Kyle Dake was a big time user of the hand on the mat in college, and he doesn't do it in FS because he knows he'll get called for it. Folk can't do the same?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Why? Kyle Dake was a big time user of the hand on the mat in college, and he doesn't do it in FS because he knows he'll get called for it. Folk can't do the same?

I said knees on the mat would be very difficult to legislate in NFHS and NCAA.  I said nothing about hands.

[BruceyB]

9 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I said knees on the mat would be very difficult to legislate in NFHS and NCAA.  I said nothing about hands.

If you can stop a wrestler from using a three point stance, wouldn't it be easier to get rid of voluntarily wrestling from a knee? Genuinely asking.

[wrestlingshoe]

I can tell you shooting through with the head is nothing new. I recall it in the 80s and 90s.  I've got scars to prove it, both self and opponent inflicted. I do think there is a lot more 3 point stance in the last 12-15 years, thus shooting through the head becomes more noticeable. If you are going to put your head in the way, you are going to get rung on the noggin. 

[Hammerlock3]

No. Because ideas like this result in "shooting through the face" being determined by a) if someone gets hurt b) if someone is soft or dishonest enough to act hurt at a crucial moment. 

Who likes it when someone gets mat returned, the ref does nothing, then realizes someone got hurt and decides it was illegal after all. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 hours ago, BruceyB said:

If you can stop a wrestler from using a three point stance, wouldn't it be easier to get rid of voluntarily wrestling from a knee? Genuinely asking.

I think it is different in high school and college that freestyle.  Can you imagine explaining to casuals, parents, etc. why some of the periods start on the knees and leg takedowns involve going to a knee and guys often get stuck on their knees in unsuccessful shots?  "But I thought going to your knees was illegal?"

Then there's the problem of how you referee or write the rulebook for an Anthony Robles, Nick Ackerman, or Dock Kelly.  You don't see a lot of guys like that, but keep them in mind when writing the rules.  

I think we are fine as long as we make guys on their knees be active, don't run, initiate attacks, etc.  I mean: They are right there for you to use your short offense on.

Those are my opinions as someone who has been a college wrestler, college coach, high school coach, fan, parent, and ref.  I'm not perfect, but I do think about stuff from multiple perspectives.

[BruceyB]

14 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think it is different in high school and college that freestyle.  Can you imagine explaining to casuals, parents, etc. why some of the periods start on the knees and leg takedowns involve going to a knee and guys often get stuck on their knees in unsuccessful shots?  "But I thought going to your knees was illegal?"

Then there's the problem of how you referee or write the rulebook for an Anthony Robles, Nick Ackerman, or Dock Kelly.  You don't see a lot of guys like that, but keep them in mind when writing the rules.  

I think we are fine as long as we make guys on their knees be active, don't run, initiate attacks, etc.  I mean: They are right there for you to use your short offense on.

Those are my opinions as someone who has been a college wrestler, college coach, high school coach, fan, parent, and ref.  I'm not perfect, but I do think about stuff from multiple perspectives.

You make some good points, and I appreciate your genuine thoughts and insight.

I disagree that it would be hard to explain why dropping to a knee when you are not engaged with your opponent is stalling. "If you voluntarily drop to your knee when you aren't involved in wrestling action, it is preventative from action taking place so the referee will warn and then call you for stalling." Much less nuanced than the inconsistency of top/bottom stalling calls which are completely arbitrary.

But as you said, I don't hate it if guys are actually active from a knee, but outside of maybe 3 or 4 people in the world, no one is scoring, or even looking to score from a knee down position. They'll stay their until they feel safe enough to come to their feet, and then shoot. I would just like stalling to be called when people use the knee down to prevent wrestling from taking place, and to slow down the match.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, BruceyB said:

You make some good points, and I appreciate your genuine thoughts and insight.

I disagree that it would be hard to explain why dropping to a knee when you are not engaged with your opponent is stalling. "If you voluntarily drop to your knee when you aren't involved in wrestling action, it is preventative from action taking place so the referee will warn and then call you for stalling." Much less nuanced than the inconsistency of top/bottom stalling calls which are completely arbitrary.

But as you said, I don't hate it if guys are actually active from a knee, but outside of maybe 3 or 4 people in the world, no one is scoring, or even looking to score from a knee down position. They'll stay their until they feel safe enough to come to their feet, and then shoot. I would just like stalling to be called when people use the knee down to prevent wrestling from taking place, and to slow down the match.

That all makes sense.

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, OMW said:

Head, hands, hips - somethings gotta give if someone's looking to score on a shot...

LOL...is the last one still a thing?

I'm kidding, but you see so many guys who immediately look to dive in on that leg and create a scramble. 

I thought that was one of the things Starocci and Brooks were so good at. They stuff a shot, they were tough and physical in that front head and they beat you up and got the most simple scores...just a little go behind. 

Lots of others do that as well, but... those two came to mind. 

6 hours ago, wrestlingshoe said:

I can tell you shooting through with the head is nothing new. I recall it in the 80s and 90s.  I've got scars to prove it, both self and opponent inflicted. I do think there is a lot more 3 point stance in the last 12-15 years, thus shooting through the head becomes more noticeable. If you are going to put your head in the way, you are going to get rung on the noggin. 

I split by eye so bad in a match, they couldn't get the bleeding to stop. This was out at Fargo and it was early, I was up...pretty good, maybe 7-0, not a tough match, but just couldn't get it stopped. 

A father who was real active in the sport and just a great dude...he comes up and he has a bad and says he can stitch it up. I remember him saying, "won't even scar, you'll still be as good...well, you won't get any uglier," when asking. And he did it, wrapped it up and...it was good. He also used Super Glue. Honestly, the thing that hurt the most was him pouring the water and then athletic wipes to clean it. It's not a particularly sensitive place though. 

[boconnell]

This can't be a serious topic.  

[wrestlingshoe]

3 hours ago, boconnell said:

This can't be a serious topic.  

Maybe not serious, but fun. Although a few of the bangs on the head are not fun to remember. If you are looking for serious though, many of the topics on this site are not for you. 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Should mat returns be illegal?  Some times wrestlers get injured from a hard mat return...

[BruceyB]

4 hours ago, boconnell said:

This can't be a serious topic.  

Name one other sport where intentional head to head contact is allowed? It's not hard to tell the difference between incidental and when a wrestler sees their opponent's head is low, and they choose to shoot with the intention of driving their head straight through their opponents face.

I was just raising the question of whether or not a situation that often ends up with open gashes on one or both wrestlers should be allowed. We call potentially dangerous in situations to protect a wrestlers health, but allow them to be headbutted directly in the face without even stopping the action as long as their opponent is reaching for the legs simultaneously.

 

[wrestlingshoe]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

Name one other sport where intentional head to head contact is allowed? It's not hard to tell the difference between incidental and when a wrestler sees their opponent's head is low, and they choose to shoot with the intention of driving their head straight through their opponents face.

I was just raising the question of whether or not a situation that often ends up with open gashes on one or both wrestlers should be allowed. We call potentially dangerous in situations to protect a wrestlers health, but allow them to be headbutted directly in the face without even stopping the action as long as their opponent is reaching for the legs simultaneously.

 

If "shooting through the face" becomes illegal, then it should be illegal to stay on your knees, be in a three point stance, or block with your head. Most coaches teach to block with the head. If you block with the head, you are likely to get head butted, or get a head to face.  If I lower my level and shoot straight on and my opponent lowers his head to block, who is at fault?

[BruceyB]

5 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said:

If "shooting through the face" becomes illegal, then it should be illegal to stay on your knees, be in a three point stance, or block with your head. Most coaches teach to block with the head. If you block with the head, you are likely to get head butted, or get a head to face.  If I lower my level and shoot straight on and my opponent lowers his head to block, who is at fault?

First of all, I don't know about teaching "blocking with the head" as defense for an attack from space which is where the situation I initially brought up takes place. Blocking with the head is typically used during tie-up scenarios, not sticking your head in the way of your opponent's during a blast double.

Secondly, you're describing two different scenarios.

Scenario 1: Wrestler A changes level and starts his shot. Wrestler B sees/feels the shot coming and changes levels/sprawls and during the process the two wrestlers heads may collide. Neither wrestler is planning for a jarring head collision in this scenario. Wrestler A began his shot before his opponents head was in the way, and Wrestler B would surely like to catch his opponent with his hands and stuff the shot without a head to head collision.

Scenario 2: Two wrestlers are not in contact, and Wrestler A is in a three point stance, on a knee, two knees, whatever. Wrestler B sees that he cannot attack from space unless he shoots head first into his opponents head and the collision knocks his opponent back and he's able to get to the legs. In this situation, the head of Wrestler A is already in the lower level, and Wrestler B chooses to lower the level of his head to that of his opponent and cause an intentional head to head collision.

I was asking specifically about scenario 2 where by having it legal, essentially Wrestler B is free to lunge his body headfirst into his opponents face as long as he's "taking a shot."