Starocci 2nd best ever?

[fishbane]

34 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I'm not seeing the distinguishing traits that Smith, Stieber, Brooks, Dake or Yianni had over him. 

Winning 4 is pretty unique it will be hard for a wrestler to win 4 in a way that is head and shoulders above all other 4xers.  Especially given that one has done it undefeated.  Undefeated without a redshirt is pretty much the only route.

Diakomihalis, Smith and Dake all won as true freshman.  Starocci didn't compete as a true freshman and it would be a stretch to hand him the title that year given how close he was with Kemmerer a year later. 

Diakomihalis and Stieber had returning NCAAs at their weight their freshman year at NCAAs.  Diakomihalis defeated 2x champ Dean Heil and Stieber bested returning champ Jordan Oliver. Both are better than the average NCAA champ.

Others had more freestyle success in college than Starocci.  Diakomihalis probably leads the way here.  He made a world team and won a world silver in college.  He also lost in the trials finals one other time.  Stieber had a junior world silver. Aaron Brooks had a junior world silver and a U23 gold.  He also lost to Taylor in the trials finals for the senior world spot.  Starocci's biggest freestyle accomplishment to date is a U23 bronze.  He also finished 3rd at the trials 3x and had some nice wins along the way (Nolf, Dieringer, Marsteller, Downey, ect.).

Dake, Brooks, and Stieber all won Hodge trophies.  It is still possible for Starocci to accomplish this.

Logan Stieber had won NCAAs at 133 in 2013 then moved up to 141 for the 2013-2014 season.  Kendrick Maple had won NCAAs in 2013 at 141 and had moved up to 149 for the 2013-2014 season.  With little to no smack talk preceding the event Stieber went up to 149 and beat Maple at the 2013 NWCA All Star classic.  Conversely, Starocci ran his mouth in the direction of AJ Ferrari for the better part of a year initially saying he was moving up to beat him/piss on his grave/whatever before pivoting to try and get him to cut weight and wrestle him at weight lower than Ferrari has wrestled in college at the 2024 NWCA All Star Classic.  Ultimately Ferrari didn't cut to the weight that I am sure he wasn't even certified to make and Starocci defeated Parker Keckeisen at the 2024 NWCA All Star Classic.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Ched64 said:

I think the thing that sets Dake apart is that he moved up his senior year not because he grew out of 157 but specifically because Taylor was at 165 and he wanted the challenge.  I know one of the Banachs were involved in something like that but really, who does that? Move up to take on arguably the absolute best wrestler in the country at that time? Then he beats him 3 times to nil.  I think Cael is the GOAT but Dake is right up there.  4 years straight, no redshirt, no covid. He was never interested in style points…he was just a winner flat out all through that run.

Parker Keckisen isn't exactly a slouch. He's a 2X Champ if not for Brooks. He's been stuck in a loaded weight class with a Hidlay, a Olympic Bronze in Amine and Brooks. I'm not sure that's a whole lot different than Dake-Taylor when Dake won it(and you can't count future performance, so if Ferrari, Welsh and McEnelly end up winning 7 titles combined it's immaterial...unless one comes this year from McEenally of course!

And Banach lost to one of the Schultz brothers(Mark moving up to 177). 

I really don't see much of a different from Starocci moving up to 184 and Dake to 165. Dake was going to Wrestle 163 at the next level(he'd already wrestled it). 

1 hour ago, Ched64 said:

4 years straight, no redshirt, no covid. He was never interested in style points…he was just a winner flat out all through that run.

Well...my guess is if Dake had a guy who'd gone 1/2/2/(likely 1) in front of him, he'd have taken a greyshirt.

He was a 19 year old when he won his title. Starocci had just turned 20. 

 

But if you're going by NC beat, he beat David Taylor. Taylor had won 1 NC. Did Dake beat any other NCs? Starocci has beaten 4 I believe? Griffith, Lewis, Keckiesen and....maybe that was it or maybe I'm forgetting someone. Quite a few guys who were dominant and had several top 5 finishes. But you sound like you're describing Starocci. Hasn't lost a match since he lost to Kemerer in the B1Gs and his only other loss was his first duel vs Donnell Washington. He's been pretty much just a flat-out winner the last 4 years as well...including on a bad knee last year in a loaded weight where he had the tough draw...

Dake lost to Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey, Donnie Vinson and Kevin LeValley as a Soph.

https://444wrestling.com/kyle-dakes-college-wrestling-career-results/

https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/56712/foca-chris/profile#google_vignette

 

 

I would not argue Dake is "right up there," what I would disagree is that Starocci isn't. 

 

[scourge165]

51 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Diakomihalis, Smith and Dake all won as true freshman.  Starocci didn't compete as a true freshman and it would be a stretch to hand him the title that year given how close he was with Kemmerer a year later. 

Nobody has to "give" him anything...he beat Kemerer the next year. The #1 Wrestler at his weight was his practice partner. 

He took a 3rd and a 4th before 2019 injury and then 2020 and a 2nd and a 4th after with a loss to Starocci in in the finals and then a loss to Hidlay in the quarters who then lost to Starocci 10-3 in the Semis. 

 

I'm not assuming anything. You can only go by what they did. Dake knew he was wrestling that year and he jumped levels that off-season(as Koll and Grey spoke about)...

If you're deducting points for RS vs True Freshmen, you're doing so with Cael and...Stieber, Brooks, Starocci and then Smith, Yianni, Smith winning it along with Dake.

But again, Cael had a NC ahead of him(I'm assuming he's at 177 and not 184 as his True Fresh year was when they changed the rules) as well. It's impossible to know...but you can make an educated guess. 

[fishbane]

18 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Nobody has to "give" him anything...he beat Kemerer the next year. The #1 Wrestler at his weight was his practice partner. 

A distinguishing trait that Dake, Diakomihalis and Smith have over Starocci is winning an NCAA title as a true freshman.  Starocci did not do this.  Winning the next year as a redshirt freshman over a guy who did not win the previous year is not the same thing.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

Logan Stieber had won NCAAs at 133 in 2013 then moved up to 141 for the 2013-2014 season.  Kendrick Maple had won NCAAs in 2013 at 141 and had moved up to 149 for the 2013-2014 season.  With little to no smack talk preceding the event Stieber went up to 149 and beat Maple at the 2013 NWCA All Star classic.  Conversely, Starocci ran his mouth in the direction of AJ Ferrari for the better part of a year initially saying he was moving up to beat him/piss on his grave/whatever before pivoting to try and get him to cut weight and wrestle him at weight lower than Ferrari has wrestled in college at the 2024 NWCA All Star Classic.  Ultimately Ferrari didn't cut to the weight that I am sure he wasn't even certified to make and Starocci defeated Parker Keckeisen at the 2024 NWCA All Star Classic.

Kendrick Maple didn't AA as a True Freshmen. 
Maple took a 4th after a RS(this is the year there was the controversial call with Oliver and Stieber). 
Maple then won it at 141
Finally, he took an 8th at 149.
So Maple NQ/4th/1st/8th, Keckiesen 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st

I think beating Keckeisen was more impressive than Maple at the All-Star Duel.

 

I don't know how the Ferrari back and forth online plays into this. They both ran their mouths, but I think we're getting closer to the real reason for the lack of respect for Starocci. People just don't like him. That's fine. The comments about winning the UFC because a D2 Wrestler was the current champ and something about how that's "beginners stuff," was obnoxious. 

Ferrari ducked everyone all season long suggests to me that match wasn't happening anyway, but with as confident as he was, why not take the offer? He wanted no part of Starocci.

 

So...I do't think the All-Star Classic is a chack against Starr. I think Keckiesen benefits from Wrestling him a first time moreso than Starocci.

[scourge165]

17 minutes ago, fishbane said:

A distinguishing trait that Dake, Diakomihalis and Smith have over Starocci is winning an NCAA title as a true freshman.  Starocci did not do this.  Winning the next year as a redshirt freshman over a guy who did not win the previous year is not the same thing.

Riiiight...would have been hard for Kemerer to win it that year as it WASN'T WRESTLED, though he WAS the highest seeded Wrestler in that tournament who didn't wrestle for Penn State.

 

But alright. The Line of Demarcation is True Freshmen or not

So Group A-Smith, Dake, Yiannis
Group B-Cael, Stieber, Brooks(though, he was the #2 seed and didn't get a chance) and Starocci

 

I don't think that's a very good line, but sure. If that's the standard, we'll go by that standard. Not...'he tweeted mean things to poor AJ Ferrari.'

 

I'll be honest, I think I'll likely end up putting multiple Wrestlers without 4 Titles(but from the era you could wrestle 4 years) in my top 10 and ahead of some 4X Champs, but now that the list is trimmed to Smith(who did end up taking a RS), Dake and Yianni(who was out for 2 years) how does the order go?

Edited March 17 by scourge165

[Gus]

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Parker Keckisen isn't exactly a slouch. He's a 2X Champ if not for Brooks. He's been stuck in a loaded weight class with a Hidlay, a Olympic Bronze in Amine and Brooks. I'm not sure that's a whole lot different than Dake-Taylor when Dake won it(and you can't count future performance, so if Ferrari, Welsh and McEnelly end up winning 7 titles combined it's immaterial...unless one comes this year from McEenally of course!

And Banach lost to one of the Schultz brothers(Mark moving up to 177). 

I really don't see much of a different from Starocci moving up to 184 and Dake to 165. Dake was going to Wrestle 163 at the next level(he'd already wrestled it). 

Well...my guess is if Dake had a guy who'd gone 1/2/2/(likely 1) in front of him, he'd have taken a greyshirt.

He was a 19 year old when he won his title. Starocci had just turned 20. 

 

But if you're going by NC beat, he beat David Taylor. Taylor had won 1 NC. Did Dake beat any other NCs? Starocci has beaten 4 I believe? Griffith, Lewis, Keckiesen and....maybe that was it or maybe I'm forgetting someone. Quite a few guys who were dominant and had several top 5 finishes. But you sound like you're describing Starocci. Hasn't lost a match since he lost to Kemerer in the B1Gs and his only other loss was his first duel vs Donnell Washington. He's been pretty much just a flat-out winner the last 4 years as well...including on a bad knee last year in a loaded weight where he had the tough draw...

Dake lost to Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey, Donnie Vinson and Kevin LeValley as a Soph.

https://444wrestling.com/kyle-dakes-college-wrestling-career-results/

https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/56712/foca-chris/profile#google_vignette

 

 

I would not argue Dake is "right up there," what I would disagree is that Starocci isn't. 

 

I get that you are a Starocci fan but lets not diminish Dake beating Taylor. 1x champ or not what Taylor had done up to that point was outstanding. The Dake wins over DT are the best wins any 4xer has on their resume.

[The Kid]

36 minutes ago, Gus said:

I get that you are a Starocci fan but lets not diminish Dake beating Taylor. 1x champ or not what Taylor had done up to that point was outstanding. The Dake wins over DT are the best wins any 4xer has on their resume.

He didn't just beat Taylor, he dominated Taylor is every phase of wrestling. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

I added a couple of categories: career bonus % and longest win streak. And I renamed the top quartile to top 2 rank. I originally used this for all the 100%ers (not just the four-timers, so top quartile made sense for the larger group).

A thing you can use to move Dake higher up on the list is that he is the only one of the seven who won his titles in the first four years after high school graduation.

• Sanderson took a red-shirt before freshmen year,
• Stieber was injured his first year,
• Smith took a red-shirt between junior and senior years,
• Diakomihalis took two years between Sophomore and Junior years,
• Brooks to a red-shirt before freshman year, and
• Starocci took a red-shirt before freshman year.

Another thing in the Dake column is he had probably the most impressive win when he beat Taylor.

[AgaveMaria]

15 hours ago, ionel said:

Well Uetake was never beaten never challenged. Starocci was beaten and I'd say even challenged in some of his wins.  I'd say he is behind several of the undefeated 3x+.  He didn't win World or Olympic gold correct?  

Yojo wrestled when Freshmen were not elegible. He wrestled and won Olympic Gold in 1964 after his Sophomore season, before his Junior season.

I'll go with Myron Roderick (his coach) and his statement: "I never saw him tested on the mat".

As a Graduate Assistent Yojo would get frustrated with the team as none of them could keep up with him in warmups.

He won his second Olympic Gold in 1968 - with a dislocated shoulder.

He wasn't flashy. He did not pile up points - part of his philosophy of not humiliating opponents. He did hurt an opponent bad one time - this after the referee called him for stalling. After the call he went to work and ground him into the mat and punished him. As this wrestler later told me "he hurt me bad".

On my all time list I have Yojo #1 - in US College wrestling.

Internationally it has to be Osamu Watanabe. Supposedly 186-0(Encyclopedia Brittanica) and never gave up a Takedown.

Yojo and Watanabe both wrestled for Japan in Freestyle.

Edited March 17 by AgaveMaria

[TylerDurden]

Another thing to consider: Dake, Yianni, et al, didn't have to wrestle a B1G schedule. 

We can't know how that might have impacted results, health or anything else, but I don't think that's a small thing. It could have impacted several things. 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle26]

I’m shocked how little value gets added for Dake winning without a redshirt. Even Cael lost his red shirt year and we have no idea if he would’ve won NCAAs (pretty likely not). That really sets dake apart for number 2, and beating DT was just icing on the cake

[peanut]

It just occurred to me that CStar has basically had three undefeated seasons already, looking for a fourth (aside from injury defaults). Would be Cael-like.

Of course, McEnelley or Keck (former Hodge finalist) — both super tough — may have something to say about that.  There’s also always the chance of an unexpected loss, injury, etc. 

Edited March 17 by peanut

[fishbane]

9 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Kendrick Maple didn't AA as a True Freshmen. 

How is this relevant?  The match took place Maple's senior year.

9 hours ago, scourge165 said:

...
So Maple NQ/4th/1st/8th, Keckiesen 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st

I think beating Keckeisen was more impressive than Maple at the All-Star Duel.

I don't know how the Ferrari back and forth online plays into this. They both ran their mouths, but I think we're getting closer to the real reason for the lack of respect for Starocci. People just don't like him. That's fine. The comments about winning the UFC because a D2 Wrestler was the current champ and something about how that's "beginners stuff," was obnoxious. 

Ferrari ducked everyone all season long suggests to me that match wasn't happening anyway, but with as confident as he was, why not take the offer? He wanted no part of Starocci.

So...I do't think the All-Star Classic is a chack against Starr. I think Keckiesen benefits from Wrestling him a first time moreso than Starocci.

Maybe it's more impressive than beating Maple, but that's not really the point and it's not so much that it is a chack against Starocci as it is a chack for Stieber.  Stieber could have wrestled Devin Carter at the All-Star match and maybe retrospectively that would look like a more difficult match, but at the time he chose to go up and challenge the returning national champion.  It was a risk to make a match we weren't going to happen otherwise.  To me that's a point for Stieber.  Sure Keckeisen is a tough match, but it's a match we are expecting to see at NCAAs.  Stieber ended up beating Carter in the NCAA final, so there really shouldn't be any regret on him passing on that match at the All Star Classic to challenge Maple.  Carter lost to Tony Ramos who was also wrestling up in the 141lb match at the All Star Classic.  Stieber was undefeated in his career against Carter, Ramos, and Maple.  He took the most challenging/interesting match.

To me Ferrari plays into this in that Starocci clearly had the chance to make this match and did not.  That's a chack against him in comparison to Stieber who did the opposite when presented with a similar opportunity.  Stieber could have stayed at 141 and called out Maple to drop, but even that would have made more sense than what Starocci did.   Maple had made 141 less than a year prior.  Ferrari last competed at 184lbs never.  To just about everyone it is clear why Ferrari didn't take the offer - he could not make 184lbs.  I am sure he was not certified to compete at 184 this season.  It was a non-offer.  I think you're right that Ferrari skipping dates this year was somewhat related to the Starocci-Ferrari all star match not happening.  He likely skipped dates because he has trouble making 197lbs!

[JimmyCinnabon]

I will wait to see if Carter wins his 5th title and at that point I think it's fair to compare him to the other 5xers to see where he stacks up. He may end up being the best 5x champ we've ever seen. Only time will tell.

[Hammerlock3]

The things that make Starocci likable as a wrestler are disqualifying for the idea he's the 2nd best ever. He's not that great an athlete (considering his peers) he has to grind people down more than the people he's being compared to, the thing that separates him is stingyness and position, which should be an under the hood feature obscured by amazing offense. 

He's the 2nd best NCAA wrestler whose active! A few years from now he might be third.  

[OH-IO]

10 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

I will wait to see if Carter wins his 5th title and at that point I think it's fair to compare him to the other 5xers to see where he stacks up. He may end up being the best 5x champ we've ever seen. Only time will tell.

you got my vote......

 

that weight class is stacked for sure.......

[Elevator]

"Best" is hard to judge, particularly if you drag freestyle accomplishments during NCAA career into it.

Among the most accomplished at collegiate wrestling - which already includes Starocci and Dake - do not think either makes the top 5 for most interesting. Yianni was more interesting as a great collegiate wrestler than Dake (who lost in a stallfest in the EIWA finals).  Starocci is probably not in the top 5 of most interesting great PSU collegiate wrestlers.  My own totally subjective criteria as to what is more fun to watch.   

[OH-IO]

great points gents, may i add....

 

Starr I do not believe wins a Natty his TRUE freshmen year, also its really unfair to compare him taking a RS when he had an absolute monster, someone at the time head and shoulders better than him in Mark Hall to contend with, if we look at Dakes Freshmen year at Cornell there are really good wrestlers for him to practice with but absolutely nobody there to contend with for starting 141..... to be even more fair Starr had a National Champion in Mark Hall and 3x finalist, lets be fair, I give Dake the edge in that he wrestled and won his true freshmen year but i also say this...he didnt have a challenge for 141 @ Cornell.... I could see it  both ways Starr ahead of Dake (if he wins 5....IF) and I can also see Dake ahead of Starr...... really not fair on Starr to say he had to take a RS year and Dake didnt for this 1 simple reason....Starr had Mark Hall to contend with , Dake had (i have no ideal who @ Cornell) however if Dake went to Iowa there was a guy named Brent Metcalf and I believe Dake would have needed a RS year in that room.....Starr if memory is correct had Mark Hall 1x'mer and 3x'mer finalist, no chance he's coming in and taking over Mr. Hall

 

I will contend this Starr does not win a Natty his  true Freshmen year if we can also agree that while Dake did win a Natty, TFY (True freshmen year), his bracket at Nationals in 2010 was not necessarily a tough bracket, yes there was 2 other top tier guys....Reece, Montell & Dake but the bracket itself may have been the easier of all in 2010.... now a days there might be 3 National champions in a weight class

[lu_alum]

35 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

I will wait to see if Carter wins his 5th title and at that point I think it's fair to compare him to the other 5xers to see where he stacks up. He may end up being the best 5x champ we've ever seen. Only time will tell.

Five time champs rating:

1. Gray Simons, 7x champ (4x NAIA, 3x NCAA, 6x OW)

2. Carlton Haselrig, 6x champ (3x NCAA D2, 3x NCAA D1)

3. Carter Starocci, potential 5x champ (5x NCAA D1)

[OH-IO]

25 minutes ago, Elevator said:

"Best" is hard to judge, particularly if you drag freestyle accomplishments during NCAA career into it.

Among the most accomplished at collegiate wrestling - which already includes Starocci and Dake - do not think either makes the top 5 for most interesting. Yianni was more interesting as a great collegiate wrestler than Dake (who lost in a stallfest in the EIWA finals).  Starocci is probably not in the top 5 of most interesting great PSU collegiate wrestlers.  My own totally subjective criteria as to what is more fun to watch.   

you right Dake was very good at stalling and wrestling near the edge when it came to wrestling top tier guys, he was a defensive wrestling genius, in todays wrestling he would be hit with multiple cautions....

thus the reason once in college he was able to basically own Taylor, his defense was better than Taylors offense, plus they had wrestled so much together they knew each others style

[Caveira]

6 minutes ago, OH-IO said:

great points gents, may i add....

 

Starr I do not believe wins a Natty his TRUE freshmen year, also its really unfair to compare him taking a RS when he had an absolute monster, someone at the time head and shoulders better than him in Mark Hall to contend with, if we look at Dakes Freshmen year at Cornell there are really good wrestlers for him to practice with but absolutely nobody there to contend with for starting 141..... to be even more fair Starr had a National Champion in Mark Hall and 3x finalist, lets be fair, I give Dake the edge in that he wrestled and won his true freshmen year but i also say this...he didnt have a challenge for 141 @ Cornell.... I could see it  both ways Starr ahead of Dake (if he wins 5....IF) and I can also see Dake ahead of Starr...... really not fair on Starr to say he had to take a RS year and Dake didnt for this 1 simple reason....Starr had Mark Hall to contend with , Dake had (i have no ideal who @ Cornell) however if Dake went to Iowa there was a guy named Brent Metcalf and I believe Dake would have needed a RS year in that room.....Starr if memory is correct had Mark Hall 1x'mer and 3x'mer finalist, no chance he's coming in and taking over Mr. Hall

 

I will contend this Starr does not win a Natty his  true Freshmen year if we can also agree that while Dake did win a Natty, TFY (True freshmen year), his bracket at Nationals in 2010 was not necessarily a tough bracket, yes there was 2 other top tier guys....Reece, Montell & Dake but the bracket itself may have been the easier of all in 2010.... now a days there might be 3 National champions in a weight class

In a …. was he literally the best ever conversation?  Is it wise to use an argument that in his true freshmen year it wasn’t fair he wasn’t even the best on his team as an argument?   Seems like an argument for definitely 100% not the “best ever”.   The best ever shouldn’t have any caveats.   

[JimmyCinnabon]

24 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Five time champs rating:

1. Gray Simons, 7x champ (4x NAIA, 3x NCAA, 6x OW)

2. Carlton Haselrig, 6x champ (3x NCAA D2, 3x NCAA D1)

3. Carter Starocci, potential 5x champ (5x NCAA D1)

Don't ever ruin my joke again.

[CHROMEBIRD]

3 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

Another thing to consider: Dake, Yianni, et al, didn't have to wrestle a B1G schedule. 

We can't know how that might have impacted results, health or anything else, but I don't think that's a small thing. It could have impacted several things. 

That's true, but I feel like the B1G factor is offset by 4-weight Dake and that his bonus % would likely be higher if he competed in the 3pt takedown era. 

[Caveira]

49 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

That's true, but I feel like the B1G factor is offset by 4-weight Dake and that his bonus % would likely be higher if he competed in the 3pt takedown era. 

And his (dake’s) bonus rate is already 125% greater than Carter at NCAAs.