Big 12 Weightgate

[TylerDurden]

The weigh in rules exist for a reason. Everyone knows (or should know) what the rules are. If you don't follow those rules, the consequences are spelled out pretty clearly. 

Does it feel like a harsh punishment to DQ a competitor who doesn't really gain an advantage by cutting weight (or whatever they were doing) so late in the process? Yep. 

Do I agree with letting people break/bend the rules and then compete? Nope. Everyone had the same opportunity to make weight before the weigh-in time began. If you didn't make weight by then, you shouldn't compete. 

I may not personally agree with the criteria regarding undergarments, weight cutting activity in the weigh-in room, etc., but those are the rules in place. You don't get to pick and choose what rules you want to follow. If the Big 12 allowed a violation of the rules and altered the competition schedule to accommodate that violation, they should be ashamed. 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:25 PM by TylerDurden

[ugarles]

31 minutes ago, ionel said:

Is a waist-band required?  Is there a minimum waist-band width?  Do we use the same waist-band rules in B12, B10, Pac etc? 

the rule is "do not alter" and "cover the whole buttocks" so if you have underwear that stays up without a waistband and CYA, i guess you're fine. if you shear off the waistband, you are not. 

[jackwebster]

49 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Am I old if the last time I weighed in no one wore underwear?

By rule.

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

The weigh in rules exist for a reason. Everyone knows (or should know) what the rules are. If you don't follow those rules, the consequences are spelled out pretty clearly. 

Does it feel like a harsh punishment to DQ a competitor who doesn't really gain an advantage by cutting weight (or whatever they were doing) so late in the process? Yep. 

Do I agree with letting people break/bend the rules and then compete? Nope. Everyone had the same opportunity to make weight before the weigh-in time began. If you didn't make weight by then, you shouldn't compete. 

I may not personally agree with the criteria regarding undergarments, weight cutting activity in the weigh-in room, etc., but those are the rules in place. You don't get to pick and choose what rules you want to follow. If the Big 12 allowed a violation of the rules and altered the competition schedule to accommodate that violation, they should be ashamed. 

 

 

 

Yeah but we still don't have answers:

briefs or boxers?

Hanes or Fruit of the Loom?

15 yr old underwear or new out of the box? 

2" waist-band or 1/32nd? 

[Kov88]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

Word is that a wrestler cut off the waist-band of their underwear in attempt to make their underwear lighter.

Yeah I heard that and had more questions about the functionality. Did they partially cut off the waist band? If they completely cut it off how does it stay up, did they use lighter string? How much weight does the waist band actually cut off? Can you use holey underwear since it’d probably weight less? So many questions

[okokzach]

33 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

The weigh in rules exist for a reason. Everyone knows (or should know) what the rules are. If you don't follow those rules, the consequences are spelled out pretty clearly. 

 

Do you take the same stance when a cop gives you a ticket for failure to use your turn signal on a right-hand turn at a four-way stop? Not all rules are equally as important. There's also the spirit and intent of the law vs a legalistic reading of the law. The "rules is rules" crowd are a bunch of smooth-brained babies 

[PortaJohn]

4 minutes ago, okokzach said:

 

Do you take the same stance when a cop gives you a ticket for failure to use your turn signal on a right-hand turn at a four-way stop? Not all rules are equally as important. There's also the spirit and intent of the law vs a legalistic reading of the law. The "rules is rules" crowd are a bunch of smooth-brained babies 

Love the numerous stories of Easter coasters going to California and coming home with a jaywalking ticket!

[Scouts Honor]

4 hours ago, BruceyB said:

In my opinion, the rule does more harm than good, especially at a qualifying tournament where a DQ means a season is over. As long as a wrestler is on the scale and makes weight at the correct time, is it that big of a deal if he's working out instead of sitting in the weigh-in area doing nothing? It doesn't give an advantage to be cutting 10 minutes later than the current rule set, but hurts the product to DQ the wrestlers. I also think it cheapens a UNI conference title if they win due to an OKST wrestler being DQ'd on a technicality.

At the end of the day, having the best wrestlers in these tournaments is best for the sport. As long as they aren't doing anything malicious and make the weight at the correct time, let it go.

i get what you are saying... but if he was working out... that not only goes against the letter of the law...but the spirit.

but i had not heard that he was working out... i heard he was sitting on a bike... talking to others... 

[Idaho]

According to a couple of coaches, Belton and Jamison were both still cutting weight when wrestlers were suppose to be in line for the weigh in. Initially they were DQ and other coaches were told this. Then they had a meeting and reversed their decision. At the end of the tournament, still no clarification was given as to why (according to Dresser). In essence, two guys got extra time to make weight that others did not get. You can call it whatever you want, but there is no "spirit of the law" here- it's literally in writing as a rule and has been for quite a while. If they had been in line when they were suppose to , would they have made weight? It doesn't sound like they would have. They would have been DQ. 

[Idaho]

53 minutes ago, okokzach said:

 

Do you take the same stance when a cop gives you a ticket for failure to use your turn signal on a right-hand turn at a four-way stop? Not all rules are equally as important. There's also the spirit and intent of the law vs a legalistic reading of the law. The "rules is rules" crowd are a bunch of smooth-brained babies 

Nope - there is no spirt or intent for a weigh in rule for conference championships. It's in writing - it's been that way for a long time. You are in favor of giving some guys extra time to make weight but not others? It's weigh in - it's a big part of wrestling and it is important. The babies are actually the ones who can't meet the expectations and need the rules changed just for them. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

1 hour ago, ugarles said:

the rule is "do not alter" and "cover the whole buttocks" so if you have underwear that stays up without a waistband and CYA, i guess you're fine. if you shear off the waistband, you are not. 

CYA but not CYD, so these are still legal 

 

[CHROMEBIRD]

Also great to see ugarles and maybe Scribe (not sure if it's him) posting again. Best of luck to Cornell at NCAAs.

[Scouts Honor]

15 minutes ago, Idaho said:

According to a couple of coaches, Belton and Jamison were both still cutting weight when wrestlers were suppose to be in line for the weigh in. Initially they were DQ and other coaches were told this. Then they had a meeting and reversed their decision. At the end of the tournament, still no clarification was given as to why (according to Dresser). In essence, two guys got extra time to make weight that others did not get. You can call it whatever you want, but there is no "spirit of the law" here- it's literally in writing as a rule and has been for quite a while. If they had been in line when they were suppose to , would they have made weight? It doesn't sound like they would have. They would have been DQ. 

i dont disagree, like in my other post in another thread ... if it had been any other school... 

i had not heard that they were actually working out

but which coaches were told. b/c dresser said in his interview that he (they) were told nothing

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, okokzach said:

 

That isn't a fact. The Big 12 actually spoke to that part of it to the ESPN broadcast team. They said the athletes in question were never disqualified. They delayed their matches while they investigated it and made an official ruling. 

But is the Big 12 official story actually a fact.  Air Force was under the impression that they were receiving a forfeit.  The story you are repeating could very well be true, but it could also be damage control.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Nope - there is no spirt or intent for a weigh in rule for conference championships. It's in writing - it's been that way for a long time. You are in favor of giving some guys extra time to make weight but not others? It's weigh in - it's a big part of wrestling and it is important. The babies are actually the ones who can't meet the expectations and need the rules changed just for them. 

And they knew the rules...

[Hammerlock3]

4 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

I'm a let them wrestle and settle it on the mat kind of guy

would you take it from me that thats a profoundly unhelpful comment?

[okokzach]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

But is the Big 12 official story actually a fact.  Air Force was under the impression that they were receiving a forfeit.  The story you are repeating could very well be true, but it could also be damage control.

You can accuse the conference of lying if you want, but there is no evidence to support that. No one has said the conference declared them disqualified and then changed their minds. The most outspoken person on this issue, Kevin Dresser, explicitly said the Big 12 had NOT told them anything. Until I hear or see better evidence, I will believe the people at ESPN who asked the Big 12 directly for answers, then reported it to their audience and cited their source.

[Idaho]

17 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

i dont disagree, like in my other post in another thread ... if it had been any other school... 

i had not heard that they were actually working out

but which coaches were told. b/c dresser said in his interview that he (they) were told nothing

 

Yeah, in the Dresser interview he had not been informed why the decision changed. He also talked about how they were not in the weigh in line because they were still losing weight. Justin Basch also reported a lot of info on it and had reported initially that they were DQ and out of the tournament. Rock Harrison also reported that they had missed their skin checks. I haven't seen any comments from Schwab yet or know if he said anything since it would have affected his team the most. 

[ionel]

37 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Nope - there is no spirt or intent for a weigh in rule for conference championships. It's in writing - it's been that way for a long time. You are in favor of giving some guys extra time to make weight but not others? It's weigh in - it's a big part of wrestling and it is important. The babies are actually the ones who can't meet the expectations and need the rules changed just for them. 

But who said they were given extra time?  

[PortaJohn]

18 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

would you take it from me that thats a profoundly unhelpful comment?

Certainly will if you can let me know why

[Fletcher]

There's also another story circulating that the kid was just sitting on an exercise bike while waiting for weigh-ins. Someone could easily spin that into a claim that they were working out in the weigh-in area.

None of us were there, so it's silly for any of us to make proclamations that the rules were broken.

[Idaho]

20 minutes ago, okokzach said:

You can accuse the conference of lying if you want, but there is no evidence to support that. No one has said the conference declared them disqualified and then changed their minds. The most outspoken person on this issue, Kevin Dresser, explicitly said the Big 12 had NOT told them anything. Until I hear or see better evidence, I will believe the people at ESPN who asked the Big 12 directly for answers, then reported it to their audience and cited their source.

Dresser also said they were "eliminated and then put back" then later says that they haven't been told anything. He also speaks of the backroom meeting that took place. 

 

[okokzach]

Just now, Idaho said:

Yeah, in the Dresser interview he had not been informed why the decision changed. He also talked about how they were not in the weigh in line because they were still losing weight. Justin Basch also reported a lot of info on it and had reported initially that they were DQ and out of the tournament. Rock Harrison also reported that they had missed their skin checks. I haven't seen any comments from Schwab yet or know if he said anything since it would have affected his team the most. 

Basch didn't "report" anything. He's not a journalist. Neither are the FRL guys. Neither is Mineo. Basch repeated what he saw from the Air Force Twitter account, which was inaccurate . He says this clearly on his show.

[Hammerlock3]

6 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Certainly will if you can let me know why

Because we need weigh ins of some sort, and they have to be at a certain time for them to work and have meaning.

Edited Wednesday at 10:47 PM by Hammerlock3

[Idaho]

7 minutes ago, ionel said:

But who said they were given extra time?  

They were late to skin check and weigh in because they were still cutting....then they were allowed to wrestled. So they were given extra time to make weight while everyone else was in line. Correct?