What does history say of a 4x champ that fails to win 5?

[BruceyB]

Take Carter out of the conversation as I want to remove as much bias as possible from this conversation. But how does failing to capture a national title in your final year effect your legacy?

Dan Gable lost to Owings after starting his career 117-0 and that largely removed him from the greatest college wrestler conversation.

Spencer Lee lost to Ramos and because he is not a 4xer he similarly is removed from the conversation.

If a 4x champ loses in an unprecedented 5th year of post-season eligibility, does that essentially cancel out being a 4x champ since you ended up losing in your 5th attempt? Or does it go to chalk because we don't know if any of the previous 4x champs would have also lost in their 5th year?

[okokzach]

Spencer should be in the conversation of greatest college wrestler. Gable Steveson should be, too. I don't think being a 4-timer is necessary to be included in that conversation. 

As for Carter, I don't think this year should affect his legacy much, except for how he performs against Keckeisen who is also elite.

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 2/2/2025 at 4:45 AM, BruceyB said:

Take Carter out of the conversation as I want to remove as much bias as possible from this conversation. But how does failing to capture a national title in your final year effect your legacy?

Dan Gable lost to Owings after starting his career 117-0 and that largely removed him from the greatest college wrestler conversation.

Spencer Lee lost to Ramos and because he is not a 4xer he similarly is removed from the conversation.

If a 4x champ loses in an unprecedented 5th year of post-season eligibility, does that essentially cancel out being a 4x champ since you ended up losing in your 5th attempt? Or does it go to chalk because we don't know if any of the previous 4x champs would have also lost in their 5th year?

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No

[BruceyB]

  On 2/2/2025 at 4:53 AM, okokzach said:

I don't think being a 4-timer is necessary to be included in that conversation. 

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I completely agree. I would probably put David Taylor and Ben Askren (I used them because they were both only two time champs) above some 4xers. Askren could have been a 4x champion if Pendleton were a couple years older, and Taylor could have as well if not for a cradle and Kyle Dake. But regardless, the fact that each of them lost twice in the finals hurt their legacy.

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 2/2/2025 at 5:04 AM, BruceyB said:

I completely agree. I would probably put David Taylor and Ben Askren (I used them because they were both only two time champs) above some 4xers. Askren could have been a 4x champion if Pendleton were a couple years older, and Taylor could have as well if not for a cradle and Kyle Dake. But regardless, the fact that each of them lost twice in the finals hurt their legacy.

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I always find the "if he hadn't lost, he would have won" argument compelling

[ionel]

Pretty sure history does not say anything.  Its never happened correct? 

[BruceyB]

  On 2/2/2025 at 5:15 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

I always find the "if he hadn't lost, he would have won" argument compelling

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I was simply stating that being a 4x champ has factors outside of how good a college wrestler is. The field you compete against is as big of a factor as any. How many NCAA champions did Cael beat in his career? I'm not removing Cael from being crowned the greatest, but he arguably dominated the weakest field of any of the four timers. Other than the GOAT himself, which four timer boasts these statistics?

"Taylor graduated with 134 wins and three losses, 50 pins, 42 technical falls, and 29 major decisions." 

[BruceyB]

  On 2/2/2025 at 5:15 AM, ionel said:

Pretty sure history does not say anything.  Its never happened correct? 

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[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 2/2/2025 at 5:42 AM, BruceyB said:

I was simply stating that being a 4x champ has factors outside of how good a college wrestler is. The field you compete against is as big of a factor as any. How many NCAA champions did Cael beat in his career? I'm not removing Cael from being crowned the greatest, but he arguably dominated the weakest field of any of the four timers. Other than the GOAT himself, which four timer boasts these statistics?

"Taylor graduated with 134 wins and three losses, 50 pins, 42 technical falls, and 29 major decisions." 

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Did Pat Smith, Yianni Diakomihalis, Aaron Brooks beat an NCAA champ? Four timers typically do not beat any NCAA champs because they are the NCAA champ. 

Edited February 2 by Wrestleknownothing

[BruceyB]

  On 2/2/2025 at 6:01 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Did Pat Smith, Yianni Diakomihalis, Aaron Brooks beat an NCAA champ? Four timers typically do not beat any NCAA champs because they are the NCAA champ. 

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I meant current or future NCAA champs. 

1. I don't know about Pat Smith's wins.

2. Cael didn't beat anyone who went on to win a National title?

3. Dake beat Molinaro, St. John, and DT

4. Stieber beat J.O. and Ramos

5. Yanni beat Dean Heil

6. Aaron Brooks beat Keckeisen

7. Starocci beat Griffith, and Lewis

So of 7 four-time champs, 5 beat either former or eventual national champions (maybe 6 if Smith did as well). So typically, 4x champs do beat NCAA champions.

I'm surprised that you of all people wouldn't agree that the years of eligibility and the field you compete against are a major factor in how many titles an individual wins. Winning 4 titles doesn't necessarily mean you were better than someone who won two but ran into a buzz saw and didn't win 4.

[Husker_Du]

Cael beat Trenge who let a title slip away in the final moments to Hahn

[gimpeltf]

  On 2/2/2025 at 9:18 AM, Husker_Du said:

Cael beat Trenge who let a title slip away in the final moments to Hahn

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Trenge's best shot might well have been his freshman year when he had the detached retina keeping him out of post season. He had beaten both of the finalists earlier.

[1032004]

  On 2/2/2025 at 4:45 AM, BruceyB said:

Take Carter out of the conversation as I want to remove as much bias as possible from this conversation. But how does failing to capture a national title in your final year effect your legacy?

Dan Gable lost to Owings after starting his career 117-0 and that largely removed him from the greatest college wrestler conversation.

Spencer Lee lost to Ramos and because he is not a 4xer he similarly is removed from the conversation.

If a 4x champ loses in an unprecedented 5th year of post-season eligibility, does that essentially cancel out being a 4x champ since you ended up losing in your 5th attempt? Or does it go to chalk because we don't know if any of the previous 4x champs would have also lost in their 5th year?

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This seems like 2 different questions.

You start out by talking about conversations of the greatest wrestler.  But most would probably say Starocci wasn’t really in that conversation to begin with due to his multiple losses as a freshman and relatively lower bonus rate.

Him losing wouldn’t “cancel out” his 4 titles, but it could be part of the conversation when ranking the 4xers IMO
 

 

[JimmyCinnabon]

Maybe we should wait to see if Carter fails to win five before we crap on him for not winning five?

[Pinnacle]

Creative thread. Put a loss on both Starocci and Sanderson. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 2/2/2025 at 6:27 AM, BruceyB said:

I meant current or future NCAA champs. 

1. I don't know about Pat Smith's wins.

2. Cael didn't beat anyone who went on to win a National title?

3. Dake beat Molinaro, St. John, and DT

4. Stieber beat J.O. and Ramos

5. Yanni beat Dean Heil

6. Aaron Brooks beat Keckeisen

7. Starocci beat Griffith, and Lewis

So of 7 four-time champs, 5 beat either former or eventual national champions (maybe 6 if Smith did as well). So typically, 4x champs do beat NCAA champions.

I'm surprised that you of all people wouldn't agree that the years of eligibility and the field you compete against are a major factor in how many titles an individual wins. Winning 4 titles doesn't necessarily mean you were better than someone who won two but ran into a buzz saw and didn't win 4.

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Lets pursue the circularity of your argument. Starocci beating Griffith and Lewis is clearly unimpressive because neither were good enough to beat Starocci.

[Boring]

  On 2/2/2025 at 6:01 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Did Pat Smith, Yianni Diakomihalis, Aaron Brooks beat an NCAA champ? Four timers typically do not beat any NCAA champs because they are the NCAA champ. 

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Yes, Pat Smith did beat another NCAA champ. Guy from Wisconsin, I think. Can't remember his name but Smith wrestled him at the All Star meet. 

[Boring]

  On 2/2/2025 at 6:27 AM, BruceyB said:

 

4. Stieber beat J.O. and Ramos

 

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Did he really? 

[Caveira]

  On 2/2/2025 at 6:27 AM, BruceyB said:

I meant current or future NCAA champs. 

1. I don't know about Pat Smith's wins.

2. Cael didn't beat anyone who went on to win a National title?

3. Dake beat Molinaro, St. John, and DT

4. Stieber beat J.O. and Ramos

5. Yanni beat Dean Heil

6. Aaron Brooks beat Keckeisen

7. Starocci beat Griffith, and Lewis

So of 7 four-time champs, 5 beat either former or eventual national champions (maybe 6 if Smith did as well). So typically, 4x champs do beat NCAA champions.

I'm surprised that you of all people wouldn't agree that the years of eligibility and the field you compete against are a major factor in how many titles an individual wins. Winning 4 titles doesn't necessarily mean you were better than someone who won two but ran into a buzz saw and didn't win 4.

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I think you’re messing with his team / guy.  

[Caveira]

  On 2/2/2025 at 1:41 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Let’s pursue the circularity of your argument. Starocci beating Griffith and Lewis is clearly unimpressive because neither were good enough to beat Starocci.

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Weren’t both severely injured too?

Edited February 2 by Caveira

[Boring]

  On 2/2/2025 at 1:47 PM, 666 said:

Yes, Pat Smith did beat another NCAA champ. Guy from Wisconsin, I think. Can't remember his name but Smith wrestled him at the All Star meet. 

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Found it. 

 

[ionel]

  On 2/2/2025 at 2:42 PM, 666 said:

Found it. 

 

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From that video id take Par Smith over Starocci.

Edited February 2 by ionel

[Fletcher]

Starocci barely beat a true frosh. There's a good chance he does not win this year and it will go down as one of the biggest choke jobs in wrestling history.

[Boring]

  On 2/2/2025 at 3:25 PM, ionel said:

Frim that video id take Par Smith over Starocci.

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At least Smith wasn't afraid to take shots!

[11986]

fwiw Demeray dropped back to 150 in 1992 and won NCAA tournament while Smith was winning his 3rd title at 158. That year Smith beat Ray Miller in the finals, Miller would win title next season at 167. Smith also beat eventual 3x champ Joe Williams his senior year (1994) by TF in the dual (Joe was a freshman).