Iowa developing talent

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, bnwtwg said:

Fix had no problem beating Lee in high school and DeSanto in college

 

a wrestler synonymous with not developing but ok!

[bnwtwg]

17 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

a wrestler synonymous with not developing but ok!

Not his fault the NCAA robbed him and he was only enrolled at OkSt for 11 years

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Not his fault the NCAA robbed him and he was only enrolled at OkSt for 11 years

Don’t forget that ped soup he got busted for 

[BruceyB]

7 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

You don't understand what I mean. When they say "develop talent" the implication is "compared to penn state." 

Where does this notion that Iowa is clearly the second best program during the PSU era even come from? It was true in 2020, and 2021. Other than those two years, they have finished in 2nd twice in the 15 years of PSUs dominance. It's not like if PSU didn't exist that Iowa would be winning the national title every year.  

In the Tom Brands era 8 separate individuals have become national champions, and they haven't developed a national champion above 133 since St. John in 2013. 

In the same timeframe, Cornell has 9 separate individual national champions, including two 4x champs.

Penn State has put 17 different wrestlers on the top of the podium during Cael's tenure. During these same years, Iowa has 4.

When Cael arrived at Penn State, Iowa was still getting the same quality of recruits each year. This started to change when PSU was putting their wrestlers on top of the podium each year, and Iowa couldn't do the same. 

Iowa is not even in the discussion about developing wrestlers in comparison with Penn State. No one is. I'm not even trying to bash Iowa here. I'm just tired of this false narrative that it goes Penn St, then Iowa, and then everyone else. 

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

add the Penn State recruit rankings top 5, then compare to the others. The total for the 5 is far less then Iowa and anyone else  I would guess

What on earth does this mean?

[VakAttack]

2 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Where does this notion that Iowa is clearly the second best program during the PSU era even come from? It was true in 2020, and 2021. Other than those two years, they have finished in 2nd twice in the 15 years of PSUs dominance. It's not like if PSU didn't exist that Iowa would be winning the national title every year.  

In the Tom Brands era 8 separate individuals have become national champions, and they haven't developed a national champion above 133 since St. John in 2013. 

In the same timeframe, Cornell has 9 separate individual national champions, including two 4x champs.

Penn State has put 17 different wrestlers on the top of the podium during Cael's tenure. During these same years, Iowa has 4.

When Cael arrived at Penn State, Iowa was still getting the same quality of recruits each year. This started to change when PSU was putting their wrestlers on top of the podium each year, and Iowa couldn't do the same. 

Iowa is not even in the discussion about developing wrestlers in comparison with Penn State. No one is. I'm not even trying to bash Iowa here. I'm just tired of this false narrative that it goes Penn St, then Iowa, and then everyone else. 

You are conflating "taking second every year" with being the second best program.

1 hour ago, Pinnacle said:

??

He beat Soencer Lee in h.s. and beat Roman Bravo Young a couple few times at Iowa before then losing 6 straight vs  that same wrestler.

He went from having a move RBY could not stop to then being completely unable to finish his shot on him. 

I don't think he got worse as a wrestler, but his relative results to RBY sure got worse. 

You are not a dumb poster but this is a dumb take.

[Pinnacle]

8 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You are not a dumb poster but this is a dumb take.

 

My wife also accuses me of occasional dumb takes. 

[Hammerlock3]

22 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Where does this notion that Iowa is clearly the second best program during the PSU era even come from?

i agree i don't know where that comes from, especially in the context of my post

Edited January 20 by Hammerlock3

[Gene Mills Fan]

16 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

What on earth does this mean?

last year Penn State got #1 Luke.L. #5 Z. Ryder #6 J.Sealey 10 c. Mirasola.

this year #1 Marcus Blaze #2 PJ  Duke #15 Henckel #18 C.M #32 N Desmond

Nobody else is getting recruiting classes this low

 

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

You are conflating "taking second every year" with being the second best program.

I'll agree, as I stated in the National Duals thread, that the NCAA tournament is not necessarily an accurate depiction of how good a team is. That said, my real point was to combat the narrative that Iowa has separated themselves in any way from the field. They are always a very, very, good dual team. They often fail to wrestle to their seeds at nationals.

The rest of my post was pointing out the Brands' failure to develop their talent into national champions. I understand Iowa fans being loyal to a legendary Hawkeye that was able to bring the program back on top by winning titles from 2008-2010, but I don't understand the reluctance to admit that the expectations of Iowa wrestling should be higher than what is currently taking place. The expectations should be bringing in high level recruits and developing them into national champions, not just AAs.

I don't know that there is a better option than the Brands at the moment, but I'm curious, as an Iowa fan it has to be maddening watching Penn State churn out champions like a factory and failing to do anything close to the same. The recruiting has also taken a notable hit over the last handful of years. Look, I don't like Iowa, but I want Iowa to be in contention for a team title every year so I can root against you when it matters. College wrestling needs Iowa to be the big bad guys. I'm optimistic that David Taylor will be able to move OKST closer to PSU, and hopefully in a few years be competitive with them, and I would love nothing more than Iowa to be there too.

[BruceyB]

12 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

i agree i don't know where that comes from, especially in the context of my post

This is honestly the most heart warming admission I have seen on this board. 

[Hammerlock3]

11 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

This is honestly the most heart warming admission I have seen on this board. 

yeah but its not racist to say there aren't anymore babylonians. 

[BIGTENFANBOY]

34 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

 

My wife also accuses me of occasional dumb takes. 

So basically VakAttack is your wife.

[BruceyB]

12 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

last year Penn State got #1 Luke.L. #5 Z. Ryder #6 J.Sealey 10 c. Mirasola.

this year #1 Marcus Blaze #2 PJ  Duke #15 Henckel #18 C.M #32 N Desmond

Nobody else is getting recruiting classes this low

 

Ah. This wasn't the case when Cael first showed up to PSU. But as they continue to turn their prospects into national champions, while other schools have routinely failed to do the same, the top athletes have been funneled into the only school consistently putting wrestlers on top of the podium. 

In the last 15 years, PSU has put 17 different wrestlers on top of the podium.

Cornell - 7

Iowa - 4

Oklahoma State - 4

Ohio State - 4

Michigan - 3 (Including Suriano)

Missouri - 3

If you were a top recruit and wanted a national title, where would you go? Other programs have to show a better rate of developing prospects into national champions before the funneling of top talent to PSU slows down.

[BIGTENFANBOY]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

that was a bizarre answer

Not an answer, more so commentary on Desanto and he was generally loved by the community until that moment. After that everyone rooted against him at NCAAs.. 

[Hammerlock3]

7 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Ah. This wasn't the case when Cael first showed up to PSU. But as they continue to turn their prospects into national champions, while other schools have routinely failed to do the same, the top athletes have been funneled into the only school consistently putting wrestlers on top of the podium. 

In the last 15 years, PSU has put 17 different wrestlers on top of the podium.

Cornell - 7

Iowa - 4

Oklahoma State - 4

Ohio State - 4

Michigan - 3 (Including Suriano)

Missouri - 3

If you were a top recruit and wanted a national title, where would you go? Other programs have to show a better rate of developing prospects into national champions before the funneling of top talent to PSU slows down.

the non existent person you are arguing with is reeling! 

[SunDevil]

26 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

 

In the last 15 years, PSU has put 17 different wrestlers on top of the podium.

Cornell - 7

Iowa - 4

Oklahoma State - 4

Ohio State - 4

Michigan - 3 (Including Suriano)

Missouri - 3

If you were a top recruit and wanted a national title, where would you go? Other programs have to show a better rate of developing prospects into national champions before the funneling of top talent to PSU slows down.

ASU has put 4 different individuals at the top of the podium in that time frame. Why didn’t they make your list? 

[BruceyB]

Just now, SunDevil said:

ASU has put 4 different individuals at the top of the podium in that time frame. Why didn’t they make your list? 

I had 3? Jenkins, Robles, and Zahid? Who did I miss?

[BruceyB]

20 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

the non existent person you are arguing with is reeling! 

I was responding to @Gene Mills Fan as he seemed to be insinuating that if other programs had the same recruiting classes, they would be doing the same thing as Penn State.

[SunDevil]

5 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I had 3? Jenkins, Robles, and Zahid? Who did I miss?

The most recent. Figs

[BruceyB]

Just now, SunDevil said:

The most recent. Figs

Oh, obviously.  The database wasn't updated and Figs completely slipped my mind.

[Wrestleknownothing]

I don't know. Seems like Iowa has been the second best team since 2010 (The Sanderson Era).

And this is with them getting short changed on the 2020 season.

The bolded number is their average finish. Iowa has averaged two places higher than Cornell. And, again, that is without averaging in a first place for 2020 when they were heavy favorites to win. 

Iowa's best is as good, or better, than anyone else's. And their worst is better than anyone, PSU included, during that time. Their worst finish is better than PSU's two worst finishes.

Edited January 20 by Wrestleknownothing

[Pinnacle]

55 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said:

So basically VakAttack is your wife.

No, but his post had the same vibe.

[BruceyB]

11 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I don't know. Seems like Iowa has been the second best team since 2010 (The Sanderson Era)

This is awesome. I was hoping you would pull something like this in. I always find these interesting.

Without a doubt Iowa has been the most consistent program during the Cael era, as shown above. But I was more referring to the best program at developing talent. I wasn't even stating that they weren't. I'm just questioning the attitude that Iowa is clearly doing the best in development outside of Penn State and it's forbidden to question the TnT regime.

I just think that if your team is not getting better, than you are either complacent with where you are at, think that it's just a temporary lull, or you should make a change. If I'm an Iowa fan, what has happened in the last 15 years to make me think we're getting better?

If you have the time, I'd be interested to see (starting with the Gable era) a graph of how many NCAA champions Iowa has produced over the years. I can't imagine anyone from the Gable era would be satisfied if you told them they were going to have 4 wrestlers become national champions over the course of 15 years. AAs shouldn't be the standard for Iowa, becoming a National Champion should.

[Le duke]

last year Penn State got #1 Luke.L. #5 Z. Ryder #6 J.Sealey 10 c. Mirasola.
this year #1 Marcus Blaze #2 PJ  Duke #15 Henckel #18 C.M #32 N Desmond
Nobody else is getting recruiting classes this low
 

Ohio State picked up the #1, 2 and 3 a couple years ago, actually.


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