Mizzou 15 Stanford 27

[MidwestMan]

Today was Alumni day in CoMo as the Tigers hosted Stanford.  I'd sure like to be able to read their minds (alumnus) concerning the current state of the program.  Is it "all" about injuries?  

 

[flyingcement]

I was really looking forward to the 174 match.  What happened to O'Toole? Was it a beak and feathers issue?

[Hammerlock3]

31 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

I was really looking forward to the 174 match.  What happened to O'Toole? Was it a beak and feathers issue?

they announced a few days ago he was done for the month

[MidwestMan]

No, I don't think so.  According to Smith, KO is dealing with some kind of ding and will be out of the lineup during January.  Seems to be an on going theme in Tiger land.  

[fatlaz]

Anybody know when/if Steed will be back?

Edited Sunday at 11:59 PM by fatlaz

[MizzouFan01]

We aren’t looking good. Hawks hurt his knee prior to getting the fall, hopefully it’s not serious. We looked out of shape and gassed during and after matches, Edmond, Seltzer Conway etc. Not winning the coin flip matches, not just today, but throughout the season is killing them. Some matches we are being rode whole periods. Have to be able to get out in bottom. They aren’t deep in some weights and it shows. The injuries have highlighted that. Until we have a full team minus Rocky i would guess scores like this become a norm. Hopefully this is deterring recruitment or current recruits with how the portal has become. 

[BruceyB]

It's both a down year for the tigers as well as an absolutely injury plagued roster. Typically Missouri's entire line-up is ranked inside the top 15 or so. This year, they have a handful of weights without an impact starter, and are missing about half their expected line-up coming into this season.

125: Surtin medically retired midseason

165: Steed looked really good this season before a knee injury

174: O'Toole is missing the month with an injury

197: Elam may miss the entire season

They have a pretty good class of true freshmen in RS right now, and some really nice recruits coming in next season. 

[MizzouFan01]

18 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

It's both a down year for the tigers as well as an absolutely injury plagued roster. Typically Missouri's entire line-up is ranked inside the top 15 or so. This year, they have a handful of weights without an impact starter, and are missing about half their expected line-up coming into this season.

125: Surtin medically retired midseason

165: Steed looked really good this season before a knee injury

174: O'Toole is missing the month with an injury

197: Elam may miss the entire season

They have a pretty good class of true freshmen in RS right now, and some really nice recruits coming in next season. 

100% true and I’m excited about it. Question is, will Smith RS those guys or let them wrestle? I would venture to say, Mendoza, Rath, Stillwell could probably overtake 133,157 and Hwy. Maybe Bambanelli wrestles at 174 with KOT gone. Best case if Rocky comes back he moves to Hwy so Stillwell can RS. 
 

walker

mendoza

edmond 

Selzter/Gioffre

Rath

Steed

Bambinelli

Hawks

Sinclair

Rocky

very formable lineup

[BruceyB]

5 minutes ago, MizzouFan01 said:

Question is, will Smith RS those guys or let them wrestle?

I'd imagine it will be case by case based on how ready each guy is. I don't follow high school wrestling super close, so other than Mendoza I don't know much about the other recruits. But even Mendoza I could see being someone that would really benefit from a year to acclimate. Is Sinclair supposed to be a 184 or 197 next year? He looks like he still has baby fat at 197. 

[MizzouFan01]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

I'd imagine it will be case by case based on how ready each guy is. I don't follow high school wrestling super close, so other than Mendoza I don't know much about the other recruits. But even Mendoza I could see being someone that would really benefit from a year to acclimate. Is Sinclair supposed to be a 184 or 197 next year? He looks like he still has baby fat at 197. 

No clue what weight he would be, but I agree 184 is probably his better weight. If Rocky is back at 197, one of hawks/sinclair is on the bench because 174 is most likely not an option for either. 
 

Here is the list of ‘25 commits. 5th ranked class overall. Rath has forgone his SR year and is training at the OTC. 

Edited Monday at 02:03 AM by MizzouFan01

[fatlaz]

Sampson Stillwell is skipping his senior year and spending it in Colorado Springs too.

[wrestle87]

I came hear to start this thread out with a "dude.....wtf is going on?"

This is two years in a row that mizzou has been an absolute ghost of what they used to be.  Is Mizzou dropping the ball in terms of NIL?  

Is coach smith just going to be the Nick Saban of wrestling? The guy who simply wasn't able to manage the program's transition from the pre to post NIL era?

I have no idea what his stance on the topic is, but I know that I have been very fortunate to watch Mizzou be a perennial top 5 team for the majority of my adult life, and this feels like much more than a "down year", this feels like something has jumped the rails and is heading or has already headed into the woods.

I understand that Stanford is better under Ayres, but, jtfc, part of that score was a stanford forfeit at 125.  Somebody please show me that this team and this program have not already gone the way of Edinboro and we're just finding out now. 

I have seen (and been member of) too many teams where a coach goes whole hog in on a particular guy or batch of guys, all the while basically hollowing out the long term foundation and culture of the program in order to put a stamp or bow on the coach's personal legacy.  

Tigers fans, what is going on here?

[MizzouFan01]

47 minutes ago, fatlaz said:

Sampson Stillwell is skipping his senior year and spending it in Colorado Springs too.

Didn’t know that. Hadn’t seen any results for him recently, now I know. 

[ionel]

52 minutes ago, fatlaz said:

Sampson Stillwell is skipping his senior year and spending it in Colorado Springs too.

So kids are being held back only to skip their senior year.  

[MizzouFan01]

31 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

I came hear to start this thread out with a "dude.....wtf is going on?"

This is two years in a row that mizzou has been an absolute ghost of what they used to be.  Is Mizzou dropping the ball in terms of NIL?  

Is coach smith just going to be the Nick Saban of wrestling? The guy who simply wasn't able to manage the program's transition from the pre to post NIL era?

I have no idea what his stance on the topic is, but I know that I have been very fortunate to watch Mizzou be a perennial top 5 team for the majority of my adult life, and this feels like much more than a "down year", this feels like something has jumped the rails and is heading or has already headed into the woods.

I understand that Stanford is better under Ayres, but, jtfc, part of that score was a stanford forfeit at 125.  Somebody please show me that this team and this program have not already gone the way of Edinboro and we're just finding out now. 

I have seen (and been member of) too many teams where a coach goes whole hog in on a particular guy or batch of guys, all the while basically hollowing out the long term foundation and culture of the program in order to put a stamp or bow on the coach's personal legacy.  

Tigers fans, what is going on here?

I wish I knew. It’s frustrating. I will say that without injuries we win this dual vs Stanford. 174 we got teched, add in kot we win, 3 point minimum. Thats 8 point swing. Rocky/Sinclair win 197. We are losing close matches all year. They came out flat and outta gas. We were already questionable at some weights even with a full healthy lineup. They are just being highlighted now that the big names are out. Cant cover them up anymore. I won’t discredit any of the guys, but we are running a lineup out that consists of room or backup guys. Losing Harmon, Whitling hurts us now, depth is depleted. 

[BruceyB]

26 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

Tigers fans, what is going on here?

We listed it above. Yes, it's a rough year, but what's going on here is you overreacting.

You said "two years in a row where mizzou wrestling has been an absolute ghost of what they used to be", meanwhile last year their roster was.. (rankings going into NCAAs)

125: #12 Surtin

133: #30 Moore

141: #14 Edmond

149: #11 Gioffre

157: #15 Mauller (former AA)

165: #1 Keegan O'Toole (2x Champ)

174: #22 Mocco (former AA)

184: #9 Hawks

197: #7 Elam (4x AA)

285: #5 Elam (2x AA)

I guess if having 4 top ten wrestlers, 8 top 15 wrestlers, and 5 returning AAs on the roster is an absolute ghost of a team, then sure. They lost 5 starters from last years roster, 4 of which were AAs. That's tough for any school to fill that doesn't have a boat load of cash to bring in big name transfers. 

Coach Smith has done a great job of recruiting in the classes of 24 and 25 by getting commits from 11 big board wrestlers, with several being notable names. I am a big fan of the Missouri program, and I am not concerned at all about where the team will be in a couple of years. 

[1032004]

I know he wasn’t expected to win this one, but kinda crazy that Kade Moore is 0-9 in dual meets this season.  Some tough dudes in there but also a (possibly) Cornell backup and a guy from Binghampton 

[The_KC_Godfather]

12 hours ago, BruceyB said:

We listed it above. Yes, it's a rough year, but what's going on here is you overreacting.

You said "two years in a row where mizzou wrestling has been an absolute ghost of what they used to be", meanwhile last year their roster was.. (rankings going into NCAAs)

125: #12 Surtin

133: #30 Moore

141: #14 Edmond

149: #11 Gioffre

157: #15 Mauller (former AA)

165: #1 Keegan O'Toole (2x Champ)

174: #22 Mocco (former AA)

184: #9 Hawks

197: #7 Elam (4x AA)

285: #5 Elam (2x AA)

I guess if having 4 top ten wrestlers, 8 top 15 wrestlers, and 5 returning AAs on the roster is an absolute ghost of a team, then sure. They lost 5 starters from last years roster, 4 of which were AAs. That's tough for any school to fill that doesn't have a boat load of cash to bring in big name transfers. 

Coach Smith has done a great job of recruiting in the classes of 24 and 25 by getting commits from 11 big board wrestlers, with several being notable names. I am a big fan of the Missouri program, and I am not concerned at all about where the team will be in a couple of years. 

Talking about rankings prior to NCAA's is a very skewed look. Half of the team s*** the bed at nationals. #12 Surtin went 0-2, #30 Moore went 0-2, #11 Gioffre went 0-2, #15 Mauller went 0-2, #22 Mocco went 0-2. Rocky took 6th. Edmond, Hawks, O-Toole, and Z. Elam were the only ones that performed as expected. Surtin was expected to AA, Mauller and Mocco were prior AA's.

I agree that the future looks bright with the recruits coming in, but it's very fair to question what is going on. Why are there so many injuries? Why do we underperform when it counts? Is there a concern that these high level recruits like Mendoza and Rath will underperform?

For years, Mizzou took non-highly recruited wrestlers (Lavion Mayes, Drake Houdashelt, Joey Lavallee, Mark Ellis, Nathan McCormick, John Erneste, Daniel Lewis, Grant Leeth, etc.) and turned them into AA's and/or NC's. Now, they get wrestlers from prestigious HS's or have a solid HS resume (ie. Allan Hart, Dylan Wisman, Clayton Whitting, Sean Harmon, Jayden Eirman, Brock Mauller, Jarrett Jaques, etc.) and they underperform or regress as they go through the program.

Maybe it's just bad luck, but it seems like decisions made about starters (ie. Whitting vs. Hawks) and the constant injuries and lack of depth are increasing. My question is...when did this start? Did losing Clemsen to Maryland hurt? Was it when Maple came in? Not blaming anyone...just wondering why this is happening all of a sudden, and again, think it's a very fair topic and question...

[The_KC_Godfather]

10 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I know he wasn’t expected to win this one, but kinda crazy that Kade Moore is 0-9 in dual meets this season.  Some tough dudes in there but also a (possibly) Cornell backup and a guy from Binghampton 

Someone else said it before...since he came back from the "incident", he hasn't been the same. I'm honestly shocked he's still the starter, but maybe the guys in the room can't beat him...idk.

[MIZ-DPT]

1 hour ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

Talking about rankings prior to NCAA's is a very skewed look. Half of the team s*** the bed at nationals. #12 Surtin went 0-2, #30 Moore went 0-2, #11 Gioffre went 0-2, #15 Mauller went 0-2, #22 Mocco went 0-2. Rocky took 6th. Edmond, Hawks, O-Toole, and Z. Elam were the only ones that performed as expected. Surtin was expected to AA, Mauller and Mocco were prior AA's.

I agree that the future looks bright with the recruits coming in, but it's very fair to question what is going on. Why are there so many injuries? Why do we underperform when it counts? Is there a concern that these high level recruits like Mendoza and Rath will underperform?

For years, Mizzou took non-highly recruited wrestlers (Lavion Mayes, Drake Houdashelt, Joey Lavallee, Mark Ellis, Nathan McCormick, John Erneste, Daniel Lewis, Grant Leeth, etc.) and turned them into AA's and/or NC's. Now, they get wrestlers from prestigious HS's or have a solid HS resume (ie. Allan Hart, Dylan Wisman, Clayton Whitting, Sean Harmon, Jayden Eirman, Brock Mauller, Jarrett Jaques, etc.) and they underperform or regress as they go through the program.

Maybe it's just bad luck, but it seems like decisions made about starters (ie. Whitting vs. Hawks) and the constant injuries and lack of depth are increasing. My question is...when did this start? Did losing Clemsen to Maryland hurt? Was it when Maple came in? Not blaming anyone...just wondering why this is happening all of a sudden, and again, think it's a very fair topic and question...

Last season Surtin was dealing with what he just retired from along with a torn hammy from a dual. Moore had just returned at Big 12's after missing a ton of time. Gioffre had broken ribs and had just returned at Big 12's. Mauller/Mocco were just banged up older guys that faded, like plenty of other 6th year seniors. Hell even with Rocky the injuries that kept him out this year happened against Brooks in the semis. 

As far as Whiting vs Hawks, just look at Whiting's results this season. He was undersized at 184 and Hawks was willing to step up and compete anytime he was asked with a higher ceiling than Whiting had shown. They've had a much older team with the COVID year and this is between big recruiting classes. Look at the 2020 season, it wasn't as bad as now but not far off before the 2021 recruits came in. This is similar with injuries making it worse. 

As far as injuries go it's tougher to say. It's definitely been more prevalent as of late but it strikes me as more bad luck with a handful of guys with significant injury histories. There's certainly been underperforming as of late but I know it's not related to Maple, losing him would be a significant loss. 

[1032004]

2 hours ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

Someone else said it before...since he came back from the "incident", he hasn't been the same. I'm honestly shocked he's still the starter, but maybe the guys in the room can't beat him...idk.

What was “the incident”?

[flyingcement]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

What was “the incident”?

Someone stabbed him with a broken bong

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

Talking about rankings prior to NCAA's is a very skewed look. Half of the team s*** the bed at nationals. #12 Surtin went 0-2, #30 Moore went 0-2, #11 Gioffre went 0-2, #15 Mauller went 0-2, #22 Mocco went 0-2. Rocky took 6th. Edmond, Hawks, O-Toole, and Z. Elam were the only ones that performed as expected. Surtin was expected to AA, Mauller and Mocco were prior AA's.

I agree that the future looks bright with the recruits coming in, but it's very fair to question what is going on. Why are there so many injuries? Why do we underperform when it counts? Is there a concern that these high level recruits like Mendoza and Rath will underperform?

For years, Mizzou took non-highly recruited wrestlers (Lavion Mayes, Drake Houdashelt, Joey Lavallee, Mark Ellis, Nathan McCormick, John Erneste, Daniel Lewis, Grant Leeth, etc.) and turned them into AA's and/or NC's. Now, they get wrestlers from prestigious HS's or have a solid HS resume (ie. Allan Hart, Dylan Wisman, Clayton Whitting, Sean Harmon, Jayden Eirman, Brock Mauller, Jarrett Jaques, etc.) and they underperform or regress as they go through the program.

Maybe it's just bad luck, but it seems like decisions made about starters (ie. Whitting vs. Hawks) and the constant injuries and lack of depth are increasing. My question is...when did this start? Did losing Clemsen to Maryland hurt? Was it when Maple came in? Not blaming anyone...just wondering why this is happening all of a sudden, and again, think it's a very fair topic and question...

They did not crap the bed last year to my way of looking. Based on seeds I had them projected to score 51 points. They scored 49.5.

[Wrestleknownothing]

Filling in some context on Mizz performance last year:

 

In the 33 seed era (5 years) the:

• #12 seed goes 0-2 8% of the time and AA's 18% of the time (most common outcome is 1-2)
• #15 seed goes 0-2 16% of the time and AA's 12% of the time (most common outcome is 1-2)
• #22 seed goes 0-2 36% of the time and has never AA'd (most common outcome is 1-2)
• #30 seed goes 0-2 80% of the time and has never AA'd (most common outcome is 0-2)

Zero wins sucks, but two or three wins is about what you expect from that group of seeds. Four is cause for celebration.

[MizzouFan01]

3 hours ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

Talking about rankings prior to NCAA's is a very skewed look. Half of the team s*** the bed at nationals. #12 Surtin went 0-2, #30 Moore went 0-2, #11 Gioffre went 0-2, #15 Mauller went 0-2, #22 Mocco went 0-2. Rocky took 6th. Edmond, Hawks, O-Toole, and Z. Elam were the only ones that performed as expected. Surtin was expected to AA, Mauller and Mocco were prior AA's.

I agree that the future looks bright with the recruits coming in, but it's very fair to question what is going on. Why are there so many injuries? Why do we underperform when it counts? Is there a concern that these high level recruits like Mendoza and Rath will underperform?

For years, Mizzou took non-highly recruited wrestlers (Lavion Mayes, Drake Houdashelt, Joey Lavallee, Mark Ellis, Nathan McCormick, John Erneste, Daniel Lewis, Grant Leeth, etc.) and turned them into AA's and/or NC's. Now, they get wrestlers from prestigious HS's or have a solid HS resume (ie. Allan Hart, Dylan Wisman, Clayton Whitting, Sean Harmon, Jayden Eirman, Brock Mauller, Jarrett Jaques, etc.) and they underperform or regress as they go through the program.

Maybe it's just bad luck, but it seems like decisions made about starters (ie. Whitting vs. Hawks) and the constant injuries and lack of depth are increasing. My question is...when did this start? Did losing Clemsen to Maryland hurt? Was it when Maple came in? Not blaming anyone...just wondering why this is happening all of a sudden, and again, think it's a very fair topic and question...

I don’t think for a second it’s Maple in any fashion. I’d be willing to bet money that if you polled the wrestlers in the room, they will all agree Maple is a huge part of whatever success the have, KOT specifically continues to mention him in interviews about what he’s done for him. I do know for a fact the reason we have gotten a couple of these higher rated recruits is Maple specifically. He’s turned into a great recruiter in his tenure. He may have input, but he doesn’t run the program, that’s what Smith does and he’s done a great job thus far. If I had one bad thing to say about Smith and it’s not even bad, is he’s loyal to his style and his guys. But that’s what makes him successful. 

We’ve obviously changed the schedule, judgement is still out on if it’s working or not, but to me it’s not. Long breaks between matches/tournaments isn’t keeping us sharp, we are flat and out of shape, Stanford match was the worst I’ve seen us in a long time. We don’t do the big tournaments over Xmas or any that I recall the last 2-3 years. Luckily our dual meet schedule has been pretty tough. As far as the recent injury bug, that’s the million dollar question. Why and how is it happening. I understand they are apart of sports, but this many in one place is crazy. Is it a wrestling room problem, strength and conditioning problem, personal injuries doing work outside on their own? Can’t perform in March if we are hurt before the whistles are blown to start the match. 
 

Can we bring Waters back? We need a light weight coach that is still competing to help Maple drill and work with these guys.