Stalling -- Backing out vs Pushing out -- Downey v Taylor

[BAC]

Any refs re rule gurus care to weigh in on the stall call on the sequence that starts at around 10:35 in SV?

If I were the ref I'd have dinged the other guy, but in fairness, I've never really understood the distinction between stalling for backing out vs. stalling for pushing out (vs. neither).  Is it in the eye of the beholder or is there some objective way to make the call?

 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I'm a high school ref, not college.  I also dabbled a bit in Greco.  To me, it looked like Taylor was trying to secure a dominant position and Downey was unable to wrestle out of it and was actually giving ground..  I feel they got the call wrong, but I am not well-versed in the current NCAA interpretations.

[Gene Mills Fan]

Downey is continually trying to engage. If he lost on a stall call there in SV it would have been a crime.

Taylor is forcing the action and trying to get the back-out stall on Downey. Key point Downey is not trying to get away he trying to circle. Did Taylor deserve a stall warning for forcing him beyond the line? not sure  Obviously the ref thought so.

Question: If the ref heard coaching yelling "push him out" could this or should this sway the call? 

[BruceyB]

To my knowledge, a wrestler cannot be called for stalling for driving their opponent out of bounds in the neutral position. I honestly can't understand, nor have I ever seen, a stall call given in this scenario. I can see where the referee would be annoyed that Taylor is clearly looking for the stall call, but regardless, I don't see how in anyway he could be considered stalling in this scenario. Coaches constantly call out "shoot him out" when guys are near the edge. If driving an opponent out of bounds is stalling, then the "shoot him out" scenarios should be called stalling on the attacking wrestler, not the guy driven out of bounds. 

Edit: I don't think either wrestler should have been hit for stalling.

Edited Tuesday at 08:38 PM by BruceyB

[okokzach]

1 hour ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Question: If the ref heard coaching yelling "push him out" could this or should this sway the call? 

No way. Refs should be deaf. 

[Gene Mills Fan]

4 minutes ago, okokzach said:

No way. Refs should be deaf. 

agree,    So it is in the eye of the beholder if he has the whistle. I think the warning was extreme as taylor started the action with the shot. 

[bnwtwg]

Back in my day Taylor vs Downey meant asking to wave the techfall threshold so Taylor could run up the score 50-0 and Downey backed out of the match

[PencilNeck]

2 hours ago, BruceyB said:

To my knowledge, a wrestler cannot be called for stalling for driving their opponent out of bounds in the neutral position. I honestly can't understand, nor have I ever seen, a stall call given in this scenario. I can see where the referee would be annoyed that Taylor is clearly looking for the stall call, but regardless, I don't see how in anyway he could be considered stalling in this scenario. Coaches constantly call out "shoot him out" when guys are near the edge. If driving an opponent out of bounds is stalling, then the "shoot him out" scenarios should be called stalling on the attacking wrestler, not the guy driven out of bounds. 

Edit: I don't think either wrestler should have been hit for stalling.

Wrestling with your back right up close to the edge of out of bounds is a bad practice. Sure, sometimes that’s where the action takes you. But if you’re constantly playing on the edge you deserve to get hit for stalling.

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, PencilNeck said:

Wrestling with your back right up close to the edge of out of bounds is a bad practice. Sure, sometimes that’s where the action takes you. But if you’re constantly playing on the edge you deserve to get hit for stalling.

Are you disagreeing with my post or agreeing?

[Gene Mills Fan]

3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Back in my day Taylor vs Downey meant asking to wave the techfall threshold so Taylor could run up the score 50-0 and Downey backed out of the match

Watch the whole match! except for the pushout 1:30 into the first period where Downey got the caution the whole neutral match is in the center of the ring over the stripes. Downey remains in the center over the stripes pretty much the entire 3rd period. In SV Taylor gets two under hooks between the center and the edge and immediately just forces action off the mat.  With these two guys you could make it a 5 point techfall threshold and its always going to be 3pt decision

[Gene Mills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Watch the whole match! except for the pushout 1:30 into the first period where Downey got the caution the whole neutral match is in the center of the ring over the stripes. Downey remains in the center over the stripes pretty much the entire 3rd period. In SV Taylor gets two under hooks between the center and the edge and immediately just forces action off the mat.  With these two guys you could make it a 5 point techfall threshold and its always going to be 3pt decision

No stalling either man

[Gene Mills Fan]

8 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

No stalling either man

wrestling action going off the mat. I think the warning he should not have got affected Antrell mentally. had to be called back to the hand shake it looked like. and look at the expression he gave the ref? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

55 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Watch the whole match! except for the pushout 1:30 into the first period where Downey got the caution the whole neutral match is in the center of the ring over the stripes. Downey remains in the center over the stripes pretty much the entire 3rd period. In SV Taylor gets two under hooks between the center and the edge and immediately just forces action off the mat.  With these two guys you could make it a 5 point techfall threshold and its always going to be 3pt decision

I think you missed a joke.

[Dogbone]

With the stalling rules, a lot of guys (Taylor in this instance) are trying to score points by getting stalling points instead of winning offensive exchanges. 

 

 

 

 

[Winners Circle]

Did anyone else read this thread and immediately think PD3 vs DT? Lmao.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

Did anyone else read this thread and immediately think PD3 vs DT? Lmao.

Yes AND that is what bnwtng seems to referring to in a previous post.

 

[nhs67]

I was hoping this was a Blue Dragons Jr VS Magicman thread.

[Winners Circle]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yes AND that is what bnwtng seems to referring to in a previous post.

 

Apologies. Didn't read any of the replies, just shot from the hip.

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Winners Circle said:

Did anyone else read this thread and immediately think PD3 vs DT? Lmao.

Yes

[BAC]

3 hours ago, Dogbone said:

With the stalling rules, a lot of guys (Taylor in this instance) are trying to score points by getting stalling points instead of winning offensive exchanges. 

Sure looked to me like Taylor was trying to score in that sequence, first a shot and then working underhooks, while Downey was backing away to avoid being scored upon.  I can see giving Downey a pass, but for the life of me I don't see what the ref saw that would justify a neutral stalling call against Taylor there.

[XiXiTiger]

23 hours ago, BruceyB said:

To my knowledge, a wrestler cannot be called for stalling for driving their opponent out of bounds in the neutral position. I honestly can't understand, nor have I ever seen, a stall call given in this scenario. I can see where the referee would be annoyed that Taylor is clearly looking for the stall call, but regardless, I don't see how in anyway he could be considered stalling in this scenario. Coaches constantly call out "shoot him out" when guys are near the edge. If driving an opponent out of bounds is stalling, then the "shoot him out" scenarios should be called stalling on the attacking wrestler, not the guy driven out of bounds. 

Edit: I don't think either wrestler should have been hit for stalling.

When the new out of bounds stalling rules first came out (2014-2015), pushing someone off the mat was also supposed to be considered stalling. Here's the press release from those rule changes. IMO, they didn't want people to win matches via push outs. They called it that way occasionally the first couple years, but rarely call stalling on the pusher now. Thus, it's even more of a strategy to simply shove the other guy OB and get a stall call.

From the article linked above, the possible calls when wrestlers go OB are: 

 "1. Stalling on one or both wrestlers for leaving the wrestling area.

 2. Stalling for pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds.

 3. Wrestling action is taking place. (It should be noted that a tie-up, including an under hook with no attempt to initiate an offensive move, is not considered an offensive or defensive attack)."

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

58 minutes ago, BAC said:

Sure looked to me like Taylor was trying to score in that sequence, first a shot and then working underhooks, while Downey was backing away to avoid being scored upon.  I can see giving Downey a pass, but for the life of me I don't see what the ref saw that would justify a neutral stalling call against Taylor there.

Taylors hips were in! Downey was giving ground.  How is Taylor supposed to score against a guy who isn't at least holding ground?  It is not like Downey can't pummel in or execute a technique from double overs.  Oh, Downey isn't comfortable in upper body positions?  So, basically Taylor is punished for trying to dominate after working to a great position.

[bnwtwg]

Taylor is always looking to score and Downey only looks for big moves or a pack of smokes

Edited 12 hours ago by bnwtwg