Possible changes to NCAA Eligibility

[Caveira]

Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

There you go again, switching definitions. Now it is about value? Before you said it was about generating revenue. 

Same …. Those words are sort of interchangeable.   

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Same …. Those words are sort of interchangeable.   

No, they are not. For the reasons I listed above.

[Caveira]

Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

No, they are not. For the reasons I listed above.

But they are all tied to the value you bring to the organization.  True pure revenue is not part of every job but they still have metrics you are measured on.  Call it value.  Call it productivity.   Call it revenue.  The folks that bring more to the table will get paid more.   Their variable bonuses will be bigger.  They will get promoted faster.   It doesn’t matter what dangles between your legs.   

I am in sales consulting.  Not pure sales.  I am deemed an expense.  Sales guys are revenue generators.  I’m still measured and commissioned on the $$ the sales rep brings in.   My variable is filled that way.   Stock bonuses are tied to it.  Promotions are tied to it.  They couldn’t care less if I was a female or a pumpkin.   Value is king.   When I was an engineer it was project based time to value.   It was who can write code faster and more efficiently.   I suspect you live somewhere in this world… perhaps a bi analyst at some point ….. maybe data science….. maybe data engineering. 

All professional jobs I have been around have a subjective measurement of some kind that change pay…  that’s just a fact.   

[Wrestleknownothing]

16 minutes ago, Caveira said:

But they are all tied to the value you bring to the organization.  True pure revenue is not part of every job but they still have metrics you are measured on.  Call it value.  Call it productivity.   Call it revenue.  The folks that bring more to the table will get paid more.   Their variable bonuses will be bigger.  They will get promoted faster.   It doesn’t matter what dangles between your legs.   

I am in sales consulting.  Not pure sales.  I am deemed an expense.  Sales guys are revenue generators.  I’m still measured and commissioned on the $$ the sales rep brings in.   My variable is filled that way.   Stock bonuses are tied to it.  Promotions are tied to it.  They couldn’t care less if I was a female or a pumpkin.   Value is king.   When I was an engineer it was project based time to value.   It was who can write code faster and more efficiently.   I suspect you live somewhere in this world… perhaps a bi analyst at some point ….. maybe data science….. maybe data engineering. 

All professional jobs I have been around have a subjective measurement of some kind that change pay…  that’s just a fact.   

I just want to be clear. Now it is value, right? Not just revenue generation? Before you said value and revenue generation are the same thing. But here you are saying they are different in different cases (you know, not the same thing). Before you were saying it was only about ability to make revenue for the school. But now you say all professional jobs have subjective criteria. Maybe take a minute. Give it a little more thought. And then decide which you want it to be.

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I just want to be clear. Now it is value, right? Not just revenue generation? Before you said value and revenue generation are the same thing. But here you are saying they are different in different cases (you know, not the same thing). Before you were saying it was only about ability to make revenue for the school. But now you say all professional jobs have subjective criteria. Maybe take a minute. Give it a little more thought. And then decide which you want it to be.

Good day sir.   

[Dark Energy]

@Wrestleknownothing - you are being the very worst kind of debater.  I pity your significant other if you have one.  You know exactly the point @Caveira is making yet you choose to quibble and while quibbling you act superior.  And if you can’t understand the point, you are an idiot.

 

@Caveira - smart choice to back away.

[Wrestleknownothing]

13 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

@Wrestleknownothing - you are being the very worst kind of debater.  I pity your significant other if you have one.  You know exactly the point @Caveira is making yet you choose to quibble and while quibbling you act superior.  And if you can’t understand the point, you are an idiot.

 

@Caveira - smart choice to back away.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Wkn had a legit point, though. Cav pivoted metrics from revenue generation to value, which is vague, and peaced out after he got called out for it.

But to play the pay-for-value game: if "value creation" is the basis for compensation, then a strong case could be made for highly rewarding women's & Olympic sports. Value is about more than eyeballs and merch. Women's and Olympic sports add value to the athletics department's brand through equity and representation, cost less to run, enhance the organization's culture, engage with the community, promote student wellness & quality of life, and arguably raise the org's APR & academic metrics (if they even matter anymore). They also don't siphon institutional or donation money that could otherwise go towards the athletics or academic departments or the student body at large.  

[billyhoyle]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/43048561/vanderbilt-qb-diego-pavia-granted-injunction-allowing-extra-year-eligibility

Update on this case. For now, JUCO years do not count toward NCAA eligibility.  So, Cornell could gray-shirt their team for multiple years.

How long until all NCAA eligibility rules go away?

[Wrestleknownothing]

21 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/43048561/vanderbilt-qb-diego-pavia-granted-injunction-allowing-extra-year-eligibility

Update on this case. For now, JUCO years do not count toward NCAA eligibility.  So, Cornell could gray-shirt their team for multiple years.

How long until all NCAA eligibility rules go away?

The NCAA is on a serious losing streak.

[WrestlingRasta]

On 11/11/2024 at 6:07 AM, Husker_Du said:

i think some wires are crossed in this thread.

there are two types of payment being discussed:

A) money + compensation to athletes from the school

B) NIL

there are two different things. 

especially for part B

no one 'deserves' anything. they are independent endorsement deals. 

On paper yes.  But the reality is all of these big programs and schools have collectives and there are direct offers for x amount of dollars to sign with x school.  On paper it is about student athletes making money on their name image and likeness.  In reality it is very much a pay to play.  The two are not so separate. 

[JimmyCinnabon]

On 11/11/2024 at 5:37 PM, JeanGuy said:

It seems that the problem is that the NCAA lost control of the NIL game. It was supposed to be that an athlete could be reimbursed for the use of the name, likeness or image. All of that seems perfectly reasonable, but the NCAA somehow let it become the wild west so I am not sure you can put it back in the tube at this point.

Eligibility should also be a no brainer. They are an organization that should be able to set their own rule for participation. Whether it be 5 years to compete 4, an age limit, or academic progress should definitely be in their control. My guess is they are gun shy and don't really want to fight that fight and soon sports will separate from the schools.

What the academics refuse to acknowledge is the marketing power of athletics and its place in applications. They think that students want to go to good old State U because it has the top geology program in the country and that just isn't all that true. 

The NCAA has never had anything to do with NIL. The courts decided what was allowable in regards to NIL, not the NCAA. The NCAA has never had any say in what NIL is after the courts ruled on it.

I agree that it's pretty out of control today but the NCAA, at least, had nothing to do with that. I don't know what the solution is but it won't come from the NCAA after already being told they can't do *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* about it by the courts.

[nhs67]

This appears to be a win for West Virginia's Strickenberger, yeah?  He'll have two (2) more years after this year.

https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/74382/strickenberger-jett/profile

[1032004]

9 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/43048561/vanderbilt-qb-diego-pavia-granted-injunction-allowing-extra-year-eligibility

Update on this case. For now, JUCO years do not count toward NCAA eligibility.  So, Cornell could gray-shirt their team for multiple years.

How long until all NCAA eligibility rules go away?

My understanding was this ruling only applies to Pavia…for now at least 

[JeanGuy]

4 hours ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

The NCAA has never had anything to do with NIL. The courts decided what was allowable in regards to NIL, not the NCAA. The NCAA has never had any say in what NIL is after the courts ruled on it.

I agree that it's pretty out of control today but the NCAA, at least, had nothing to do with that. I don't know what the solution is but it won't come from the NCAA after already being told they can't do *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* about it by the courts.

That is the problem, they have nothing to do with it but yet they do. NIL in its correct form allows students athletes to profit off of their name image and likeness. The collectives have made it so the schools are paying for participation and that is not what NIL is about. The NCAA needs to rein in its own institutions and get things back to the correct application of NIL.

[BruceyB]

32 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:

That is the problem, they have nothing to do with it but yet they do. NIL in its correct form allows students athletes to profit off of their name image and likeness. The collectives have made it so the schools are paying for participation and that is not what NIL is about. The NCAA needs to rein in its own institutions and get things back to the correct application of NIL.

I agree that the collective system and pay-for-play isn't what NIL was intended for, but at the same time, why can a brand pay an athlete to endorse their product and bring in revenue, but a school can't pay a player to generate interest and revenue for their school? Contracts will likely be the first step towards creating at least some stability in the current landscape. At least with contracts, players won't be "free-agents" every year looking to hop over to the next highest bidder.

[maligned]

13 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/43048561/vanderbilt-qb-diego-pavia-granted-injunction-allowing-extra-year-eligibility

Update on this case. For now, JUCO years do not count toward NCAA eligibility.  So, Cornell could gray-shirt their team for multiple years.

How long until all NCAA eligibility rules go away?

Wow! This could end up being yet another huge change. Is 2 years JUCO plus 4 years (5 years with wrestling) of NCAA going to become a normal development plan for certain large cross-sections of athletes? Wow. All JUCO coaches and administrators have to be celebrating the huge bump in enrollment and athlete quality they're about to get.

Lots of kids with non-Top 25 offers would now view JUCO as a place to get stronger and better at their sport--and get a huge leg up on similar, less seasoned 18 year olds competing for offers to places they can make money. Certain sports and conferences will become like D1 hockey where you have to be 21 with a couple years of the junior hockey circuit under your belt to get signed somewhere.

Edited December 19 by maligned

[SoonerKing]

I don't think this will be limited to JUCO. It should also apply to NAIA as they are not governed by NCAA either.

[CHROMEBIRD]

15 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The NCAA is on a serious losing streak.

Just a toothless animal at this point

[Caveira]

3 hours ago, maligned said:

Wow! This could end up being yet another huge change. Is 2 years JUCO plus 4 years (5 years with wrestling) of NCAA going to become a normal development plan for certain large cross-sections of athletes? Wow. All JUCO coaches and administrators have to be celebrating the huge bump in enrollment and athlete quality they're about to get.

Lots of kids with non-Top 25 offers would now view JUCO as a place to get stronger and better at their sport--and get a huge leg up on similar, less seasoned 18 year olds competing for offers to places they can make money. Certain sports and conferences will become like D1 hockey where you have to be 21 with a couple years of the junior hockey circuit under your belt to get signed somewhere.

Maybe it will stop kids from taking a year off in 8th grade to play vids in the basement.   Some good can come out of it?

[1032004]

18 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Maybe it will stop kids from taking a year off in 8th grade to play vids in the basement.   Some good can come out of it?

Maybe, although I’m sure high school results will still be the basis for a lot of recruiting which will still encourage holdbacks.  But could also help kids that don’t end up getting scholarships or mucho NIL bucks not be in so much debt when they graduate.

[macwoodfleet]

11 hours ago, JeanGuy said:

That is the problem, they have nothing to do with it but yet they do. NIL in its correct form allows students athletes to profit off of their name image and likeness. The collectives have made it so the schools are paying for participation and that is not what NIL is about. The NCAA needs to rein in its own institutions and get things back to the correct application of NIL.

They can't do this. They have absolutely no legal jurisdiction over what a booster pays an athlete. none. zero. zip. zilch. They cannot regulate it. it is illegal. 

[maligned]

16 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Maybe, although I’m sure high school results will still be the basis for a lot of recruiting which will still encourage holdbacks.  But could also help kids that don’t end up getting scholarships or mucho NIL bucks not be in so much debt when they graduate.

High school results will be the basis for kids that go straight to D1--but they won't matter at all for kids that go the JUCO route. If a 20 or 21 yo kid finishes up JUCOs as a high placer, that's all that will matter. A 20/21 year-old 3rd place JUCO kid with his age 21 to 25 "man strength" years available for a D1 program suddenly becomes just as desirable as the #15 ranked high schooler. If it plays out that JUCO doesn't count toward eligibility, this shift toward JUCO becoming more a college minor league for D1 will cause a high percentage of graduating high schoolers outside the top few at each weight to consider JUCOs. Again, think of hockey where almost all D1 kids have to be 20 or 21 with 2 or 3 years of the amateur junior hockey circuit post-high school to get an offer. It could absolutely evolve a considerable degree in that direction.

Edited December 20 by maligned