Penn State called out by JB

[AnklePicker]

Let's say JB wins another gold putting him at 11 medals and 8 golds.  Would he then be the GOAT?  Or is it impossible for him to be the GOAT?  

[strange_daze]

JB is in the GOAT conversation at the very least, and as much as any other wrestler over the past 15 years, has drawn national and international attention both to the sport and to team USA. He's also a master of generating content: the first wrestler, in my view, to really take advantage of our social media environment and make it work for him and his brand (#allheseesisgold). Smith, Baumgartner, Burroughs have all achieved or are in the process of achieving mythological status in the sport. If there is a mount Olympus for USA wrestling, they're all on it.

[BAC]

14 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

"Home team" In freestyle?  Does that mean MM is allowed to get chippy and instigate JB?

Instigation, shoving, wrestling after the whistle, wrestling out of bounds by MM is fine, then?  Amazing how many people don't comment on that stuff.

I agree that Mesenbrink took it too far a few times with some overly-rough clubs, wrestling past the whistle, maybe a mild head butt.  But JB overreacted and took it too far at the end, punitively shoving Mesenbrink's head down, hard.  There's a reason JB was the only one penalized, and he's lucky it wasn't worse. Then after the match, he shocked everyone by shoving Mesenbrink *again* as he walked toward JB's coaches, preventing him from shaking their hands.

To my own eyes, though JB's first shove was worse than anything Mesenbrink had done singularly, I felt Mesenbrink probably had it coming for taking his aggression too far too many times.  If I was there, I wouldn't have booed that, as it was more like an old dog taking a swipe at a pup after one too many nips.  But I'd definitely have booed JB for shoving Mesenbrink after the match to prevent a coach handshake.  I thought that was straight-up unsportsmanlike.  I'd also have booed Mesenbrink if he did that to JB. 

[cangemi]

On 9/18/2024 at 8:02 PM, KennyEBHS said:

Burroughs has always felt like a guy who was blessed with great talent, a highly competitive mind, but with too much hubris. I disliked his gold shoes way back. I am a PSU fan and I watched live what happened in Rec Hall and I was very disappointed in the PSU fans. But Burroughs must take some responsibility for his chippiness with Mesenbrink in front of a home crowd. In truth, I was surprised Burroughs didn't just shrug it off like some wrestlers would.

I think Kenny is spot on. It was not hate. Was sticking up for there kid. Taken the wrong way. What he expect?

[AgaveMaria]

On 9/23/2024 at 4:11 PM, MPhillips said:

I believe it's Bruce.  I'm just curious why you believe it's Smith...

Six in a row is a strong reason.

[Le duke]

9 hours ago, BAC said:

I agree that Mesenbrink took it too far a few times with some overly-rough clubs, wrestling past the whistle, maybe a mild head butt.  But JB overreacted and took it too far at the end, punitively shoving Mesenbrink's head down, hard.  There's a reason JB was the only one penalized, and he's lucky it wasn't worse. Then after the match, he shocked everyone by shoving Mesenbrink *again* as he walked toward JB's coaches, preventing him from shaking their hands.

To my own eyes, though JB's first shove was worse than anything Mesenbrink had done singularly, I felt Mesenbrink probably had it coming for taking his aggression too far too many times.  If I was there, I wouldn't have booed that, as it was more like an old dog taking a swipe at a pup after one too many nips.  But I'd definitely have booed JB for shoving Mesenbrink after the match to prevent a coach handshake.  I thought that was straight-up unsportsmanlike.  I'd also have booed Mesenbrink if he did that to JB. 

My problem here is that people are talking about the same Jordan Burroughs that punches people in the face and pretending like Mesenbrink is some kind of Russian wrestling villain.

Plenty of people have made note of that over the years. Let's not pretend that JB is a babe in the woods here. 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 minutes ago, Le duke said:

My problem here is that people are talking about the same Jordan Burroughs that punches people in the face and pretending like Mesenbrink is some kind of Russian wrestling villain.

Plenty of people have made note of that over the years. Let's not pretend that JB is a babe in the woods here. 

 

Jordan is a bit extra-physical with the handfight between the whistles.  Admittedly, I'm not a huge fan of some of JBs tactics (at least not domestically), but it is done between the whistles.

MM, whom I really like,  was doing it OOB and after the whistle.  A bit cheaper.

Then you have Rutherford whom has poked more people in the eye than all three stooges.

Edited September 25 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Truzzcat]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:39 AM, AnklePicker said:

Let's say JB wins another gold putting him at 11 medals and 8 golds.  Would he then be the GOAT?  Or is it impossible for him to be the GOAT?  

Ive always been biased towards longevity rather than peak so to me he is already the american goat. I think Satiev is the GOAT of the sport and will still be even if Jordan wins another gold.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

6 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

Ive always been biased towards longevity rather than peak so to me he is already the american goat. I think Satiev is the GOAT of the sport and will still be even if Jordan wins another gold.

If we are sticking to freestyle, why isn't it Medved?

[Truzzcat]

15 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

If we are sticking to freestyle, why isn't it Medved?

I am terribly bias in regard to sports evolving over time, so I tend to discredit much older athletes mentally. In terms of accomplishments, he is certainly the best.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

I am terribly bias in regard to sports evolving over time, so I tend to discredit much older athletes mentally. In terms of accomplishments, he is certainly the best.

It has been over 20 years since Saitiev won, in that case.

[Truzzcat]

4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It has been over 20 years since Saitiev won, in that case.

satiev won the cycle after cael won his and I would take cael against most people at his age now. I guess I just think the sport evolved a lot in the 90's and early 2000's from where it was in the 60's and 70's. It's also hard to find film on those guys which probably taints my perspective a bit. Ultimately, I'm aware of two losses Satiev took in 13-14 years at the most competitive weight there is overall. I think both he and JB hold a special place to me for always having a target on their back and being able to adapt for over a decade to stay on top. The difference to me is Satiev never had to shift weights to continue winning.

[Wrestleknownothing]

4 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

 I guess I just think the sport evolved a lot in the 90's and early 2000's from where it was in the 60's and 70's. 

That is certainly true in every other sport. So, it is fair to assume that is true in wrestling.

[MPhillips]

 

[Antitroll2828]

On 9/23/2024 at 5:11 PM, MPhillips said:

I believe it's Bruce.  I'm just curious why you believe it's Smith...

I could lean either Bruce or John depending what criteria you want to lean towards more …John for winning 6 straight with 2 Olympic golds that’s the most dominating stretch in us history ..or Bruce for longevity, making so many teams , accumulating 13 medals ,including 4 Olympic medals including gold.
 

And for the record I’d have JB at 3rd I honestly think he hurt his legacy but wrestling into his 30s , losing his weight class to Dake 2 Olympic cycles ago and dropping matches to atleast 4 different Americans in that time frame 

[Antitroll2828]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:39 AM, AnklePicker said:

Let's say JB wins another gold putting him at 11 medals and 8 golds.  Would he then be the GOAT?  Or is it impossible for him to be the GOAT?  

Impossible, he ll never make another Olympic team and lacks the Olympic medals to be the “goat”

[peanut]

1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Impossible, he ll never make another Olympic team and lacks the Olympic medals to be the “goat”

Winning worlds is actually more difficult than winning the Olympics (at least at Olympic weight classes). The Olympics is thought of as having more prestige simply because it has a much wider audience.

Aside from more medals, what JB has on Smith is that he won a number of golds in era of only six weight classes (Smith had ten) and after the fall of the USSR.

Of course, winning six straight has an undeniable appeal.

At the end of the day, GOAT talk is fun but doesn't mean much in reality. Wrestling a chain reaction, a constantly evolving endeavor. If someone inspires you by their work ethic and by their grit and by their performances, that's really all the sport can offer fans.

Edited September 26 by peanut

[PortaJohn]

14 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

Ive always been biased towards longevity rather than peak so to me he is already the american goat. I think Satiev is the GOAT of the sport and will still be even if Jordan wins another gold.

Part of the reason why GOAT conversations are silly is because we all have our interpretations of what qualifies someone as the Goat.  I would never argue it because the results don't add up but I still think Cary Kolat is the best US wrestler to take the mat in freestyle.  I think he's the most talented American to do it.  I'd put Spencer Lee as a close second.  Maybe even first.  IMO their freestyle skills far surpass JB, Dave Schultz, Bruce, John Smith etc.  But  they don't have the hardware to enter the conversation.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

12 hours ago, MPhillips said:

 

Great video

[AnklePicker]

Silly that competition doesn't matter to the anti JB goat squad.  A state champ in Kentucky is not the same as a state champ from Pennsylvania.  

[PortaJohn]

14 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Silly that competition doesn't matter to the anti JB goat squad.  A state champ in Kentucky is not the same as a state champ from Pennsylvania.  

Cael is a state champ from Utah. 

[MPhillips]

1 minute ago, PortaJohn said:

Cael is a state champ from Utah. 

And you just know someone is going to mention the Raney bros...

[The Kid]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:33 AM, Truzzcat said:

Ive always been biased towards longevity rather than peak so to me he is already the american goat. I think Satiev is the GOAT of the sport and will still be even if Jordan wins another gold.

Have you heard of Medved?  

[Alces Alces Gigas]

Does the GOAT deserve universal love?  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Have you heard of Medved?  

Yes.  I heard of him almost 24 hours ago.

The answer was: Medved was too long ago, but Cael and Saitiev weren't too long ago... despite them both being over 20 years ago.