Ben Askren - If you are high schooler who wants to go to Iowa, don't

[boconnell]

7 hours ago, fishbane said:

I agree that athletes should have the freedom to move and earn money off their name image and likeness.  Payments made for transfers like this, though under the rules that allow for NIL earnings, are not that.  They are direct compensation for joining the team, but I don't have much issue with that as I think colleges should be able to pay athletes directly.  I suspect Askren feels similarly and none of that changes his criticism.

Employment by and large is at will in the US.  Employees are free to quit and employers can terminate an employee at any time for any reason.  Often times employers will try and build a family culture at a company, yet when redundancies come team building, family, and culture rarely comes up.  Some employers will notify employees in advance to give them time to transition and/or a severance package.  Other places will notify you via an email to you work email that they've already deactivated, so you find out when your badge doesn't work in the morning.  Some companies promote from within when there is a management opening.  Others will overlook promoting a hardworking over performing employee to recruit a high priced replacement that knows nothing of the company culture.  Askren's advice regarding Iowa is similar to advice that I'd give anyone contemplating working for a employer that has a reputation of being demanding and treating employees as expendable at a moment's notice - do it for the right price and low expectations. 

The way these guys got replaced right before the semester started is closer to a turn your badge off redundancy.  I am sure they don't mention that to recruits on the way in.  "If you make the starting lineup and don't place at NCAAs we may bring in a top 3 guy for $500 large to replace you after the bursar has cashed your tuition check for the semester."  It kind of undermines the talk of culture and family and having all the wrestlers over for Thanksgiving.  What kind of message does it send to any wrestler that might consider going to Iowa as a walk on that's not expected to start when a success story like Glazier who did the right things, overachieved, worked his way into the starting lineup, and achieved a top 10 ranking gets replaced like this?  At least 4 other guys received the message. Do you think these 7 guys (5 outbound and Teemer and Buchanan) are showing up to some reunion like the one Askren described 20 years from now?

If a successful program in a non-revenue sport has a transfer budget of over $1MM/year to bring in players then financial fair play rules are likely needed to maintain the competitive landscape we have now, which isn't that competitive.  The NCAA should also consider a transfer window that is aligned with its members educational mission.  Only transfers that take place within the window would be eligible to compete for the new school the next term.  Having guys switching teams and moving across the country the first week of classes seems incompatible with an educational mission. 

I agree there are a few things that are tough on athletes, while the overall field is massively slanted towards the athletes.  

Lots of kids got recruited over in the past.  They lost a year of eligibility if they transferred back then.  This might happen more last minute and more sudden change, but it's still far more beneficial to the athletes then when nobody was allowed to leave without losing 25% of their college eligibility.  A guy getting pushed out in August is bad.  A guy sitting a full calendar year is far worse.  The free movement has obvious downside, but it is still massively in favor of the wrestlers over the universities.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

You're just going to have to trust me bro. Don't worry, it's a safe bet! I spoke with someone, who I trust deeply, who claims to have spoken with Buchanon

Ok, so how much did your cousin's wife's mailman's brother's hairdresser hear Buchanon got?  No need to be coy.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, boconnell said:

I agree there are a few things that are tough on athletes, while the overall field is massively slanted towards the athletes.  

Lots of kids got recruited over in the past.  They lost a year of eligibility if they transferred back then.  This might happen more last minute and more sudden change, but it's still far more beneficial to the athletes then when nobody was allowed to leave without losing 25% of their college eligibility.  A guy getting pushed out in August is bad.  A guy sitting a full calendar year is far worse.  The free movement has obvious downside, but it is still massively in favor of the wrestlers over the universities.

A guy getting effectively kicked to the curb out AFTER classes have already started, he's enrolled, moved in, gotten settled, etc is also bad.

[boconnell]

7 hours ago, JeanGuy said:

I am in a weird spot with this. I thought that the old rules were so restrictive and harmed the athlete especially in lieu of a coach's ability to go to different schools on a whim. Where we are now has really become untenable. Players coming and going multiple times in a career. This can't be good for sport.

I would like to see the athletes get one free transfer. After that there has to be a penalty. Coaches need to be able to know how to build their rosters.

NIL needs to be reined in and there be actual NIL work associated with any pay. If a guy makes a deal with Dave's Chevrolet or Nike great. I don't want some murky transfer of money to come to State University to play soccer. The NCAA seems to have really dropped the ball here with their own rules.

I can only speak for myself but all of this as currently being executed is driving me away from college athletics.

What about when the school collects murky money as donations like happened for the past 50 years?  I feel much better about athletes getting checks then I do about the boosters sending money to the university to spend on locker rooms and coaches who are the highest paid employee in the state. 

Should coaches be limited to one free transfer and have to sit when they leave more than that? 

The way it's currently being executed is awful and messy.  Almost as awful and messy as the way it used to be executed.  I wasn't driven away by how it used to be and I'm not driven away now.

[boconnell]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

A guy getting effectively kicked to the curb out AFTER classes have already started, he's enrolled, moved in, gotten settled, etc is also bad.

It is.  It's almost as bad as it used to be when guys got kicked to the curb in the summer and sat for 15 months.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, boconnell said:

It is.  It's almost as bad as it used to be when guys got kicked to the curb in the summer and sat for 15 months.

Yeah but for those 5 ex-Iowa guys, if they had known in June they could have taken their time planning their next moves, not to mention avoid the hassle of moving in and out of Iowa City and then again to wherever they land.

[boconnell]

Just now, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Yeah but for those 5 ex-Iowa guys, if they had known in June they could have taken their time planning their next moves, not to mention avoid the hassle of moving in and out of Iowa City and then again to wherever they land.

It would have been.  It also would have been easier for the schools that got jilted by guys leaving for Iowa.  These transfers might be the worst it can get in the current system.  

It's still massively helping the athletes compared to situations of the past.  

[Mr. PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Ok, so how much did your cousin's wife's mailman's brother's hairdresser hear Buchanon got?  No need to be coy.

I heard something in the neighborhood of 69,420

[Wrestleknownothing]

20 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

I heard something in the neighborhood of 69,420

I knew it. I knew you were Elon Musk.

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I knew it. I knew you were Elon Musk.

If so can Mr. PB give Bob & Du some coin so they can fix the darn forum!

[EntertainMe]

This would be a little lopsided but it is my thought. Why not have NIL (by name) be more of a contractual option that if an athlete is to take money from anyone. They must disclose it and the current school is given the option to match that contract to stay. Make it more transparent. 

[fishbane]

17 hours ago, boconnell said:

I agree there are a few things that are tough on athletes, while the overall field is massively slanted towards the athletes.  

How exactly is the field massively slanted towards athletes?  I'd agree if the measure is how it was 15 years ago then it's better for athletes no doubt, but slanted towards athletes?  That sounds false to me.  Even with the settlement (that's apparently not all that settled) the revenue split is far lower than seen in professional leagues.   There is a single union that I am aware of representing a single team of athletes in NCAA sports which isn't recognized by either its institution or the NCAA.  Though there are reports of NCAA football players getting NIL deals in the millions of dollars I have yet to see even a single power 5 athlete out earn his head coach. At the pro level there are players on essentially every team that out earn their coach/manager.  The highest paid people involved in NCAA sports remain Football coaches, basketball coaches, and administrators.  There is still some ways to go until it's level IMO.

17 hours ago, boconnell said:

Lots of kids got recruited over in the past.  They lost a year of eligibility if they transferred back then.  This might happen more last minute and more sudden change, but it's still far more beneficial to the athletes then when nobody was allowed to leave without losing 25% of their college eligibility.  A guy getting pushed out in August is bad.  A guy sitting a full calendar year is far worse.  The free movement has obvious downside, but it is still massively in favor of the wrestlers over the universities.

Yes it's better, but that doesn't invalidate the criticism. Buying a replacement -1 to 2 weeks before the start of classes might be the shittiest thing they can do under the current rules and Askren and other will call out the practice and tell wrestlers to think twice before deciding to go there. I am sure 15 years ago the same people would have similar criticism and advice concerning schools that would recruit over a wrestler and not grant a release.

[jchapman]

Did these Iowa to SDSU transfers effectively "screw over" any current SDSU wrestlers?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Did these Iowa to SDSU transfers effectively "screw over" any current SDSU wrestlers?

I think so.  Where does Swenson fit in?

[fishbane]

19 hours ago, 1032004 said:

There are a lot of unknowns about the financials of Glazier.

Maybe he was getting nothing from Iowa so it wasn’t a hard decision to leave.

Maybe he was at least getting free rent from Nicolls so he didn’t have to worry about the lease breaking scenario.

Maybe he got a good offer from SDSU to offset some, all or more than he was losing at Iowa.

 

Ifin I were Glazier I'd be a little worried that I wouldn't get a fair shot at the starting spot at  197.   Assuming the $500k transfer fee is true, there could be some pressure real or perceived for Brands to use Buchanan over Glazier.  Suppose Brands picks Glazier over Buchanan in the post season and Glazier underperforms.  Is it possible that the boosters that shelled out the cash and recruited Buchanan would be upset with that decision?  Is it possible if Brands thinks Glazier has the slight performance edge going into the post season that he would nevertheless pick Buchanan because it's the safe choice considering his track record at NCAA's and significant investment that was made to bring him in?

[Gus]

48 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think so.  Where does Swenson fit in?

Medical redshirt likely for Swenson and Martin. 

[Gus]

52 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Did these Iowa to SDSU transfers effectively "screw over" any current SDSU wrestlers?

Nope. The transfers fit nicely in for SDSU. Cobe can fill in for Swenson while he rehabs his knee and we really did not have anyone of note at 165 or 197 with Sloan and Cook graduating. The SDSU coaching staff values have a tight knit team and would not bring in guys at the expense of team chemistry. Go Jacks!

[alex1fly]

5 hours ago, EntertainMe said:

This would be a little lopsided but it is my thought. Why not have NIL (by name) be more of a contractual option that if an athlete is to take money from anyone. They must disclose it and the current school is given the option to match that contract to stay. Make it more transparent. 

I like this. It should be transparent especially for state institutions where salaries and scholarships are public knowledge so NIL payments should be too. NIL should also require some kind of name and likeness work be done. Also one for time for the people in the back, 500k isn't confirmed so that postulation ain't worth jack, and there's a big difference between a cash payment and a combination of tuition/board/books/incentives/post-grad opportunities. Again this is where the details of NIL should be public knowledge or it needs to be reformed to be more equitable like having one NIL fund per roster that gets distributed equally among that roster. 

[poorwrestler]

Nope. The transfers fit nicely in for SDSU. Cobe can fill in for Swenson while he rehabs his knee and we really did not have anyone of note at 165 or 197 with Sloan and Cook graduating. The SDSU coaching staff values have a tight knit team and would not bring in guys at the expense of team chemistry. Go Jacks!

Jordan
Cardinal
Gross?
Siebrecht
Siebrecht
Rhodes?
Devos
Berge
Glazier
Rasmussen?

Are the starters in stone at 141, 165 and HWT? I wonder if Logan Swenson can’t push for a spot right away


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gus]

7 minutes ago, poorwrestler said:

Jordan
Cardinal
Gross?
Siebrecht
Siebrecht
Rhodes?
Devos
Berge
Glazier
Rasmussen?

Are the starters in stone at 141, 165 and HWT? I wonder if Logan Swenson can’t push for a spot right away


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think Avery Allen will push for a spot at 141/149. 141 and 149 are pretty open right now. I think Gross and Daniel Kimball are probably the front runners for those spot as of right now. I believe the plan is to redshirt Logan Swenson this season. Rhodes is the favorite for the 165 spot but Gaynor will push for it as well. Gaynor has wrestled some closed matches against high level competition but has been unable to get over the hump to this point. HWT is Rasmusssen's spot to lose. 

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

How exactly is the field massively slanted towards athletes?  I'd agree if the measure is how it was 15 years ago then it's better for athletes no doubt, but slanted towards athletes?  That sounds false to me.  Even with the settlement (that's apparently not all that settled) the revenue split is far lower than seen in professional leagues.   There is a single union that I am aware of representing a single team of athletes in NCAA sports which isn't recognized by either its institution or the NCAA.  Though there are reports of NCAA football players getting NIL deals in the millions of dollars I have yet to see even a single power 5 athlete out earn his head coach. At the pro level there are players on essentially every team that out earn their coach/manager.  The highest paid people involved in NCAA sports remain Football coaches, basketball coaches, and administrators.  There is still some ways to go until it's level IMO.

Yes it's better, but that doesn't invalidate the criticism. Buying a replacement -1 to 2 weeks before the start of classes might be the shittiest thing they can do under the current rules and Askren and other will call out the practice and tell wrestlers to think twice before deciding to go there. I am sure 15 years ago the same people would have similar criticism and advice concerning schools that would recruit over a wrestler and not grant a release.

I agree that this Iowa situation is the worst thing that can be done in the current rules. 

I also agree that it was far worse on athletes in the past.  I think right now athletes can collect large amounts of money that is mostly based on their college affiliation.  Nobody is paying those guys to wrestle after graduation.  They are paying them specifically to be associated with the university. 

As for revenue split, you have a point in football or men's basketball.  Wrestling produces no meaningful revenue, so any pay is far outside of a revenue split.  Good college wrestlers are getting far more right now from being apart of a college wrestling team than the schools are getting from the arrangement. 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

I also agree that it was far worse on athletes in the past.  I think right now athletes can collect large amounts of money that is mostly based on their college affiliation.  Nobody is paying those guys to wrestle after graduation.  They are paying them specifically to be associated with the university. 

Sure NIL payments to transfer are a circumvention of current NIL rules and more accurately described direct payment to compete for the school.  I'd say it's against the rules, but we are not far off from universities paying athletes directly so I don't see it as the worst part of the recent Iowa transfers.

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

As for revenue split, you have a point in football or men's basketball.  Wrestling produces no meaningful revenue, so any pay is far outside of a revenue split.  Good college wrestlers are getting far more right now from being apart of a college wrestling team than the schools are getting from the arrangement. 

The schools that pursue transfers like this have non-neglible revenue from wrestling, but you're right from a profit-loss it doesn't justify the expense... little does on a university's balance sheet as they are non-profit entities.  Tuition doesn't cover academic operating expenses either.

Revenue is kind of beside the point.  A handful of schools decided long before these particular transfers, and NIL in general, that winning a national title in wrestling is really important to them and they are willing to spend millions of dollars to try and do it.  David Taylor has an annual salary of $1MM, so OSU is willing to spend over $1MM on coaches's salaries.  Iowa is set to pay Tom Brands $700k this year, whilst Terry Brands is making $400k. Iowa is also spending over $1MM on coaches's salaries.  I am sure PSU has a similar coaching budget.  From a profit-loss standpoint I don't know that those salaries are justified by the revenue the programs generate any more than paying wrestlers $100-$500k to transfer.  Coaches are getting far more from this arrangement than the schools are wouldn't you say?

Prices and salaries are set by the market and the market right now has a handful of motivated bidders.  It only really takes two for a price to skyrocket, but with so few bidders it's a volatile market.  David Taylor retired in April and got a $1MM contract.  If he had turned it down to compete and train full time through the world championships next month, he'd likely only find offers paying a fraction of that.  Buchanan and Teemer might have received large paydays, but suppose someone like Peyton Hall went shopping for a transfer destination at the same time.  OSU, PSU, and Iowa all have multiple really good options at 165-174.  He likely wouldn't be living as high on the hog as Buchanan or Teemer.

Edited September 6 by fishbane

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 hours ago, Gus said:

Nope. The transfers fit nicely in for SDSU. Cobe can fill in for Swenson while he rehabs his knee and we really did not have anyone of note at 165 or 197 with Sloan and Cook graduating. The SDSU coaching staff values have a tight knit team and would not bring in guys at the expense of team chemistry. Go Jacks!

But there were room guys at 165 and 197 who thought they were the starters until last week? Right?

[Gus]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

But there were room guys at 165 and 197 who thought they were the starters until last week? Right?

Naturally. They weren’t going to forfeit the weights if that is what you mean. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

6 minutes ago, Gus said:

Naturally. They weren’t going to forfeit the weights if that is what you mean. 

Yes.  Feel bad for the room guys.  Would have been nice if they were notified in June.  Don't get me wrong, happy for SDSU, who is prob in my top 5 of favorite programs.

But stinks to the guys who just lost their jobs at the last minute to wrestlers who weren't even in the portal.