Ben Askren - If you are high schooler who wants to go to Iowa, don't

[1032004]

23 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

How can a coach reduce NIL amounts?  I would also imagine a contact with a local car dealership, perhaps, was inviolable.

Good question 

[Wrestleknownothing]

48 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

How can a coach reduce NIL amounts?  I would also imagine a contact with a local car dealership, perhaps, was inviolable.

Because almost none of the money is coming from dealerships, or the like, these days. Instead it comes from single donors (rumored Iowa, PSU, OSU models), or collectives (also Iowa, PSU, OSU, but others too). These sources are known to coordinate closely with coaches.

[fishbane]

2 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

This happens in every other sport; you recruit and now pay to put your best lineup possible out there. Iowa wrestling is in and of itself a business. Was what they did morally the best thing I don't know but I know it made them a much better team. At the end of the day their job is to put the best product they can on the mat.

I don't know that it's a business.  Business are operated to turn a profit.  I'd be very surprised if the revenue generated by the team plus the economic benefit provided by the wrestlers with NIL deals exceeds NIL payments and team expenses.  If it were operating as a business that shouldn't happen.  It would even be unsustainable at a normal non-profit corporation.  It works for certain NCAA programs because boosters/hanger-on treat the team like their play thing.

This issue is also seen in for-profit pro sports when a rich person buys a team and treats them as a toy spending far in excess of revenue and subsidizing team expenditures with their personal fortune.  This issues are mitigated in virtually every major pro league across the world via financial fair play rules.  These either set a salary cap or penalties for excessive spending like a luxury tax that is distributed to other teams to help with competitive balance, or penalties like post season bans and/or points deductions.  

If NIL payments becomes an issue for competitive balance maybe a soft cap would be appropriate.  Look at the NIL monies spent at all programs and determine a limit.  It could be a flat limit or tied to a teams revenue.  If a team exceed the limit then there will be a points deduction at the NCAA tournament based on how much they have exceeded the limit.

[Idaho]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Speaking of boosters trying to replace guys, on HR Willie seems to be implying there is truth to the claim that an OK State booster made an offer to Ayala, although supposedly Taylor nixed it (and allegedly also reduced NIL amounts that Hamiti and Hendrickson had agreed to before Taylor was hired).

How does a coach reduce an NIL amount that is a legal contract between the athlete and a 3rd party that the coach cannot be involved in? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

How does a coach reduce an NIL amount that is a legal contract between the athlete and a 3rd party that the coach cannot be involved in? 

Exactly

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

12 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Because almost none of the money is coming from dealerships, or the like, these days. Instead it comes from single donors (rumored Iowa, PSU, OSU models), or collectives (also Iowa, PSU, OSU, but others too). These sources are known to coordinate closely with coaches.

The Ayala/Hamiti/Hendricksen story is likely either woefully incomplete, untrue, or  illegal (possibly on multiple levels.)

[CHROMEBIRD]

It's not hard to image the ways a coach could thwart an NIL deal, either directly or indirectly. I don't really understand why Taylor would NOT want to bring Ayala on board, though. Seems like there's room in the lineup for him. Was it a personality or team chemistry issue? Didn't want the package deal with Dru? Banking the NIL funds for a bigger get? What's the story there

[Idaho]

3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The Ayala/Hamiti/Hendricksen story is likely either woefully incomplete, untrue, or  illegal (possibly on multiple levels.)

Yep... the only "legal" way I see that happening is that DT talks to the 3rd party about re-negotiating the NIL contract in order to free-up some money for someone else. In that case DT can't be involved in that re-negotiation and both the athlete and the 3rd party would have to agree to a new contract.

What could have happened here is that Hendrickson may have had a verbal deal in place for NIL prior to Taylor getting the job on May 6th. Taylor is announced and then Amine wants to come in as well so they have to renegotiate the agreed NIL to bring another guy in. Hendrickson agrees to renegotiate, gets announced May 19th and Amine May 23rd. In this case a contract is never signed. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Yep... the only "legal" way I see that happening is that DT talks to the 3rd party about re-negotiating the NIL contract in order to free-up some money for someone else. In that case DT can't be involved in that re-negotiation and both the athlete and the 3rd party would have to agree to a new contract.

What could have happened here is that Hendrickson may have had a verbal deal in place for NIL prior to Taylor getting the job on May 6th. Taylor is announced and then Amine wants to come in as well so they have to renegotiate the agreed NIL to bring another guy in. Hendrickson agrees to renegotiate, gets announced May 19th and Amine May 23rd. In this case a contract is never signed. 

Yes. I was thinking a contract hadn't been signed and they screwed The Great American Hero or something similar.

[fishbane]

58 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

How can a coach reduce NIL amounts?  I would also imagine a contact with a local car dealership, perhaps, was inviolable.

It's in a weird place right now.  A coach has to recruit an athlete but all he can offer is a scholarship then some other dude unaffiliated with the university contacts the potential recruit and offers to pay him a large sum of money to move to the city the college is in and do some token amount of work.

If I were the coach or the general manager of a pro sports team operating in this way I'd find it completely untenable.  You have little control over whether these monies actually get paid or to whom.  I mean so long as the boosters like you there is probably some amount of cooperation, but if they lose faith or don't like you then you could end up like Joe Biden.  

Moreover if there is some economic downturn for the business of the booster on the hook for an NIL deal they might seek to get out of it.  If it were an ad for a car dealership at market rate for a shoe deal with Nike/Adidas/ect. it's less of a concern because the business will receive economic benefit commensurate with the value of the deal.  However imagine there is a booster rich from real estate investment that lives states away from Iowa and is paying wrestlers to transfer to Iowa and his business takes a downturn.  Cuts need to be made.  Is he going to follow through with a $1MM in payments to a couple of 1 year rentals when it provides no meaningful economic benefit to this struggling business? 

Hopefully the lawsuit settlement that allows for up to 30 scholarships and schools to pay players directly will transfer some of the NIL collective dollars back to the school so the coaches and administrators have more control. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

27 minutes ago, Idaho said:

How does a coach reduce an NIL amount that is a legal contract between the athlete and a 3rd party that the coach cannot be involved in? 

I have some questions:

Contract?
Are you sure about the contract aspect?
Has anyone ever seen an NIL contract?
Are these contracts standardized?
What does a contract look like for a car dealer providing a lease vs. a collective spreading money around vs. a single wealthy booster?
Who is writing these contracts? The payor or the payee?
Is there a chance any contract that exists is written to favor the payor over the payee?
Do the payees have lawyers on retainer to negotiate the contract terms for them?
 

[CHROMEBIRD]

My alma mater (and I assume most schools) have their NIL slush fund setup as tax exempt 501c3 not-for-profits, which softens the impact for those who pitch into the collective when their own finances go south. Donors can still setup their own individual NIL sponsorships, but the collectives comprise a disproportionate share of the funding pool. The IRS or congress may revoke the NIL tax exempt status if that isn't a process that's already in motion.

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

My alma mater (and I assume most schools) have their NIL slush fund setup as tax exempt 501c3 not-for-profits, which softens the impact for those who pitch into the collective when their own finances go south. Donors can still setup their own individual NIL sponsorships, but the collectives comprise a disproportionate share of the funding pool. The IRS or congress may revoke the NIL tax exempt status if that isn't a process that's already in motion.

The IRS has already been pushing back on allowing 501c3 status:

https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/news/nil-collectives-blocked-by-irs-from-claiming-tax-exempt-status/

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I have some questions:

Contract?
Are you sure about the contract aspect?
Has anyone ever seen an NIL contract?
Are these contracts standardized?
What does a contract look like for a car dealer providing a lease vs. a collective spreading money around vs. a single wealthy booster?
Who is writing these contracts? The payor or the payee?
Is there a chance any contract that exists is written to favor the payor over the payee?
Do the payees have lawyers on retainer to negotiate the contract terms for them?
 

Are there some handshake agreements? Probably. Under the table money? Probably. But, I  am pretty sure if an athlete wants to be paid 100k for the their NIL they agreed to,  that they want that in writing. I sign a contract every year for my job and the company I work for creates it and I look it over and sign it. If you are paying for the services, and that is what it is, paying to use someones Name Image and Likeness, you also want to be protected legally. As the payer, you want to be protected as to not being sued for using someone's NIL without permission....hence NCAA football video games.  Do all contracts look the same? I am guessing they don't since there are differing arrangements of what you are getting paid for. Do some contracts expect nothing? Probably.  At the end of the day, when you start getting up there in serious money, probably should have a lawyer and a contract. If you don't you end up like that QB in an 13.85 million lawsuit over an "agreement"

Edited September 4 by Idaho

[1032004]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The Ayala/Hamiti/Hendricksen story is likely either woefully incomplete, untrue, or  illegal (possibly on multiple levels.)

Willie indirectly addressed the Ayala story, essentially calling it “pretty damn accurate.”  He did not really address the Hamiti/Hendrickson story but said the poster that made the claims posts “accurate inside info” as much as any poster he’s seen on HR.

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, 1032004 said:

Willie indirectly addressed the Ayala story, essentially calling it “pretty damn accurate.”  He did not really address the Hamiti/Hendrickson story but said the poster that made the claims posts “accurate inside info” as much as any poster he’s seen on HR.

 

That's why I am saying it is likely something is missing or there was possibly some sort of illegal behavior going on.  (NCAA illegal or contact law illegal)

[1032004]

22 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

That's why I am saying it is likely something is missing or there was possibly some sort of illegal behavior going on.  (NCAA illegal or contact law illegal)

So is it true that coaches are supposed to have no involvement whatsoever in NIL?  I think even FRL has made comments about Taylor “not wanting to go crazy with NIL” or something to that effect

[BAC]

16 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Correct, but you said Glazier is an example of “no one is safe.”  No one is safe at PSU either

Come on man you know that's not what I meant.  It's wrestling.  Since long before NIL and the portal, no one's ever been "safe".  There's always a second stringer looking to knock you off your perch, and no coach is ever going to protect a starter from that (one hopes).   

But there was a time if you were a 25-4 fifth (sixth) year senior and top-10 guy, gearing up for a strong AA run in your final year of eligibility, you don't expect your school to say "nah let's do better" and affirmatively go out hunting for someone higher ranked, paying them six figures specifically to take your place, and force you off to another school.

At some point, looking to better your team crosses the line to disloyalty, and this is across the line for me.

Maybe this is going to be the new norm.  With athletes getting paid, college athletics is more of a business, and maybe they should expect to be treated like any other fungible. But I guess I'm old school, as I think there's still a human element of this, and some value in both coaches and athletes viewing each other as something more than just a commodity and means to an end.  

[1032004]

5 minutes ago, BAC said:

Come on man you know that's not what I meant.  It's wrestling.  Since long before NIL and the portal, no one's ever been "safe".  There's always a second stringer looking to knock you off your perch, and no coach is ever going to protect a starter from that (one hopes).   

But there was a time if you were a 25-4 fifth (sixth) year senior and top-10 guy, gearing up for a strong AA run in your final year of eligibility, you don't expect your school to say "nah let's do better" and affirmatively go out hunting for someone higher ranked, paying them six figures specifically to take your place, and force you off to another school.

At some point, looking to better your team crosses the line to disloyalty, and this is across the line for me.

Maybe this is going to be the new norm.  With athletes getting paid, college athletics is more of a business, and maybe they should expect to be treated like any other fungible. But I guess I'm old school, as I think there's still a human element of this, and some value in both coaches and athletes viewing each other as something more than just a commodity and means to an end.  

Well in relation to the more recent discussion being had, we don’t know if the Brands even had any involvement in bringing Buchanan in.

And also in relation to the more recent discussion, you can almost compare this to the OSU coaching situation IMO.  All signs pointed to them hiring Coleman Scott, a pretty successful head coach and extremely successful wrestler and alumnus of the school.  But a booster said “nah let’s do better.”

[BAC]

5 hours ago, steamboat_charlie said:

I agree with some of what you're saying, but this does not sound "objective."  

The distance between Buchanan and Glazier isn't negligible, it's significant.  Claiming otherwise calls into question your motivation, as well as the rest of the content of your post.  

Yeah a couple people have said something along those lines. You're free to disagree, but it doesn't impact  my "motivation". Last year pre-NCAAs I had Glazer projected to be on the AA stand (even bet $ on it), and I'm pretty sure 95+% of the Hawk faithful did too.  Sure he laid an egg at NCAAs, but it doesn't erase his 25-4 season. I guess you can fairly ask, what's a better representation of Glazier -- the guy who lost in OT to V-Tech's Smith and got teched by Brooks, or the guy who majored B10 champ Silas, and took Ferrari/Brooks to the wire?  I don't know, but it's more than a bit weird (and revisionist) to see all these Hawk fans suddenly badmouthing like Glazer like he was some JV chump.  IMO, if Glazier beat Buchanan this year it'd be an upset, but not a huge one.    

But fine.  Call the difference "significant." I don't even since Buchanan's gotten it done at NCAAs multiple times, including two 3rds, and Glazier hasn't.  But my core point remains:  Glazier was good enough for the coaches to not go looking to expel him. 

To be clear:  NO, he's not guaranteed a spot, and he has no right to expect Iowa is going to turn away an excellent incoming recruit at his weight.  I wouldn't even be upset if, under the old system, Buchanan just randomly decided to transfer to Iowa, since you can't expect your coaches to say "NO you aren't welcome here."  But for Iowa to specifically chase after Buchanan, paying boatloads of money to outbid other schools for the specific reason of having him displace Glazier, a 25-4 top-10 guy, from the lineup in his final year of eligibility after 5 seasons in the black and gold, forcing him to another school?  Naw. That's just betrayal in my book.

Edited September 4 by BAC

[fishbane]

If Jessie Whitmer were a rising 5th year in 2024 instead of 1996...

Edited September 4 by fishbane

[BAC]

48 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Well in relation to the more recent discussion being had, we don’t know if the Brands even had any involvement in bringing Buchanan in.

Maybe. I don't have good intel on how that works. I envision it working the way political campaigns and their supporting PACs work, where the law forbids "direct coordination," but somehow they always seem to have everything coordinated to a T.  It's like, come on, you just know there's some text group on Telegram or wherever, with encrypted messages that disappear seconds after being read.  Or more likely, some guy who acts as the "go between," who both sides know has the other's ear and will reliably convey info.  I find it hard to believe that any wrestler is coming to any team without the HC's blessing.

48 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

And also in relation to the more recent discussion, you can almost compare this to the OSU coaching situation IMO.  All signs pointed to them hiring Coleman Scott, a pretty successful head coach and extremely successful wrestler and alumnus of the school.  But a booster said “nah let’s do better.”

Interesting analogy, and I see the parallels.  But when there's an opening coaching spot, everyone expects the school will do a nationwide search to find the best guy.  Is that what college wrestlers at Iowa (and maybe other schools) should now expect, every year?  That no matter how well they do, during the offseason Iowa is going to do a nationwide search to see if they can purchase the skills of someone better than you, and send you packing?  Is that what's best for Iowa, best for the sport?

Edited September 4 by BAC

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 minute ago, BAC said:

Maybe. I don't know have good intel on how that works. I envision it working the way political campaigns and their supporting PACs work, where the law forbids "direct coordination," but somehow they always seem to have everything coordinated to a T.  It's like, come on, you just know there's a some big text group on Telegram or wherever, with encrypted messages that disappear seconds after being read.  Or more likely, some guy who acts as the "go between," who both sides know has the other's ear and will reliably convey info.  I find it hard to believe that any wrestler is coming to any team without the HC's blessing.

Interesting analogy, and I see the parallels.  But when there's an opening coaching spot, everyone expects the school will do a nationwide search to find the best guy.  Is that what college wrestlers at Iowa (and maybe other schools) should now expect, every year?  That no matter how well they do, during the offseason Iowa is going to do a nationwide search to see if they can purchase the skills of someone better than you, and send you packing?  Is that what's best for Iowa, best for the sport?

The Athletic interviewed a number of the collectives and they said they work directly with the coaching staffs (this was in reference to football) to make sure they are filling the team's needs.

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The Athletic interviewed a number of the collectives and they said they work directly with the coaching staffs (this was in reference to football) to make sure they are filling the team's needs.

There are no rules ... well except that you can't put QR codes on your helmets.  

[VakAttack]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills that we're talking about Zach Glazier as a person who was entitled to a starting spot.  We're talking like they recruited over Drake Ayala.