The Brands'should have trained the team

[MJD]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

5 of 6 guys medaled right.   The sky isn’t falling.   Also freestyle is insanely less popular in the us.  Look at attendance #s to the high school state tournament in IL vs let say…. The us open or the wtt or the ott.    It’s crazy that the freestyle minority always has to have this convo every year.   Someone said the female freestyle in college proves it works (or something like that).  Are any women’s programs drawing the crowd that NCAAs does ?     
 

This is probably? The most popular wrestling message board in the us?   I assume it is.  The rules In freestyle are so confusing that there are endless debates where people can’t even distinguish what a passivity rule is…. Hold the center ?  Action ?    It’s simply not as popular as folkstyle.   The $ says so.   
 

Please stop trying to ruin folkstyle with this crazy rule set.  Folkstyle is action packed.   Compare even post counts from the college forum vs this forum.   College dominates the # of posts by a landslide.   Even the non wrestling topic forum bears this by post volume/counts.  

I think the USA team did well, and they deserve praise for their hard work.

Women's wrestling is still quite new, so we can't compare numbers yet. It's growing and they are doing an excellent job; I look forward to the bright future there.

I don't read the college forum much, as I'm more interested in freestyle, even though I mostly wrestled folkstyle in my younger years since that was what was mostly available.

I think wrestling can grow in the USA, but not with folkstyle. It's shrinking at the college level, and college is the only outlet for folkstyle after high school. A sport cannot thrive and grow if it's just a school thing, in a few selected states, with one program absolutely dominating every aspect of it. 

[billyhoyle]

19 minutes ago, Caveira said:

5 of 6 guys medaled right.   The sky isn’t falling.   Also freestyle is insanely less popular in the us.  Look at attendance #s to the high school state tournament in IL vs let say…. The us open or the wtt or the ott.    It’s crazy that the freestyle minority always has to have this convo every year.   Someone said the female freestyle in college proves it works (or something like that).  Are any women’s programs drawing the crowd that NCAAs does ?     
 

This is probably? The most popular wrestling message board in the us?   I assume it is.  The rules In freestyle are so confusing that there are endless debates where people can’t even distinguish what a passivity rule is…. Hold the center ?  Action ?    It’s simply not as popular as folkstyle.   The $ says so.   
 

Please stop trying to ruin folkstyle with this crazy rule set.  Folkstyle is action packed.   Compare even post counts from the college forum vs this forum.   College dominates the # of posts by a landslide.   Even the non wrestling topic forum bears this by post volume/counts.  

Folkstyle is action packed if you enjoy riding time. Why is it decreasing in popularity compared to 15 years ago? 

[1032004]

3 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

If we just had a freestyle season at the college level, we would innovate and grow immensely.  And why not?  They spend all year splitting time between styles.  A freestyle season organized at the program level would move things in the right direction. 

Clearly it works for US women.

What do you mean “it”?  Elor and Blades don’t wrestle in college, and the rest have been out of college 5+ years (and 2 of them went to college in Canada).

[wrestle87]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

What do you mean “it”?  Elor and Blades don’t wrestle in college, and the rest have been out of college 5+ years (and 2 of them went to college in Canada).

“It” is having freestyle be the entire focus of training throughout a career.

[Caveira]

29 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Folkstyle is action packed if you enjoy riding time. Why is it decreasing in popularity compared to 15 years ago? 

Why is it still more popular than freestyle ?   

[Caveira]

34 minutes ago, MJD said:

I think the USA team did well, and they deserve praise for their hard work.

Women's wrestling is still quite new, so we can't compare numbers yet. It's growing and they are doing an excellent job; I look forward to the bright future there.

I don't read the college forum much, as I'm more interested in freestyle, even though I mostly wrestled folkstyle in my younger years since that was what was mostly available.

I think wrestling can grow in the USA, but not with folkstyle. It's shrinking at the college level, and college is the only outlet for folkstyle after high school. A sport cannot thrive and grow if it's just a school thing, in a few selected states, with one program absolutely dominating every aspect of it. 

It’s shrinking because of $ imo…. And title 9….  And a less popular product won’t make it shrink slower.  It will shrink faster.   

[billyhoyle]

15 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Why is it still more popular than freestyle ?   

People care more about their schools than the athletes. Once they're no longer scoring team points, a lot of fans lose interest. 

[Caveira]

8 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

People care more about their schools than the athletes. Once they're no longer scoring team points, a lot of fans lose interest. 

That’s a leap I’m not willing to make.  The sport is never going to be tier 1 amazing in the USA.  your hypothetically basically saying if wrestling were fruit ninja carver would still sell out.    It’s just tribal homerism?   
 

That’s just a fact we don’t want to agree with no matter how much we want to.   Replacing something more popular with something less popular will be catastrophic.  

[The Kid]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

That’s a leap I’m not willing to make.  The sport is never going to be tier 1 amazing in the USA.  your hypothetically basically saying if wrestling were fruit ninja carver would still sell out.    It’s just tribal homerism?   
 

That’s just a fact we don’t want to agree with no matter how much we want to.   Replacing something more popular with something less popular will be catastrophic.  

Folkstyle isn't a popular sport.   

It's dying right in front of your eyes.

The casual fans have no idea of what's going on. 

[billyhoyle]

9 minutes ago, Caveira said:

That’s a leap I’m not willing to make.  The sport is never going to be tier 1 amazing in the USA.  your hypothetically basically saying if wrestling were fruit ninja carver would still sell out.    It’s just tribal homerism?   
 

That’s just a fact we don’t want to agree with no matter how much we want to.   Replacing something more popular with something less popular will be catastrophic.  

I don't think it will be tier 1 either. What I'd like is for it to just be close to as popular as it was 10-15 years ago.  Sports like Lacrosse and Women's Basketball are growing, while wrestling is shrinking.  But yeah, nothing is wrong.

Edited August 11 by billyhoyle

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Folkstyle isn't a popular sport.   

It's dying right in front of your eyes.

The casual fans have no idea of what's going on. 

It is more popular than freestyle.   Show me some kind of metric that says do?   Attendance to us based big tourneys?   Networks televising in prime time big us based tourneys?

why is NCAAs sold out and live on ESPN + streaming services in prime time and the us open / wtt on some second rated platform?  
 

why does the Illinois high school and prolly the ikwf (kids) state tourney out draw ott / wtt / us open?

 

Why does the college forum out post the international forum?   
 

Why is wrestling on at 4am for the Olympics (tv revenue) instead of 3:3 bball.   Or break dancing?  

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, billyhoyle said:

I don't think it will be tier 1 either. What I'd like is for it to just be close to as popular as it was 10-15 years ago. 

Delusional.  15 years ago we saw maybe 40% of the ncaa finals only.  Just the finals.  Now we see every bout.  Look up the Lincoln Mac finals bout with abbas… you get to see like 4 minutes of it.  Now we see every big 10 dual… big 10s.   Big 12s.   Eiwa… d3 nationals.   Every Martch of the ncaa finals.     The blood round.  
 

there are more posts hating on quint kessneck (spelling ?) than on this forum lol.  
 

ncaa wrestling is thriving or ESPN would drop them.  

[billyhoyle]

4 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Delusional.  15 years ago we saw maybe 40% of the ncaa finals only.  Just the finals.  Now we see every bout.  Look up the Lincoln Mac finals bout with abbas… you get to see like 4 minutes of it.  Now we see every big 10 dual… big 10s.   Big 12s.   Eiwa… d3 nationals.   Every Martch of the ncaa finals.     The blood round.  
 

there are more posts hating on quint kessneck (spelling ?) than on this forum lol.  
 

ncaa wrestling is thriving or ESPN would drop them.  

That's not true.  15 yers ago, every round of NCAAs were streaming as well on ESPN3/ESPN+/what ever it was called back then.  There were also matches from Big10s, BIG12s, and duals on BTN and other channels, and streaming. Lincoln Mcilravy wrestled 30 years ago! Do you know what year we are in or who the president is? 

Edited August 11 by billyhoyle

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

That's not true.  15 yers ago, every round of NCAAs were streaming as well on ESPN3/ESPN+/what ever it was called back then.  There were also matches from Big10s, BIG12s, and duals on BTN and other channels, and streaming. Lincoln Mcilravy wrestled 30 years ago! Do you know what year we are in or who the president is? 

I don’t think it was 15 years ago.  Maybe 7.   In 2009 I had a package for fox spots I believe and I got to see some psu and Lehigh duals…..  they didn’t start streaming the pig tails and every Match until a few years back.  When they started showing the quarters at NCAAs…… Pre quad box that was awesome but that wasn’t 15 years ago.  And there wasn’t an app for it.  
 

  Sir forget a lot is president.  Show me Fargo attendance.  Why is the us open not live on ESPN?   Why are OTTs not live on ESPN?   Why is the WTTs not on ESPN?   Why does the college board have 4x the posts this board does?    

[Hammerlock3]

11 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Delusional.  15 years ago we saw maybe 40% of the ncaa finals only.  Just the finals.  Now we see every bout.  Look up the Lincoln Mac finals bout with abbas… you get to see like 4 minutes of it.  Now we see every big 10 dual… big 10s.   Big 12s.   Eiwa… d3 nationals.   Every Martch of the ncaa finals.     The blood round.  
 

there are more posts hating on quint kessneck (spelling ?) than on this forum lol.  
 

ncaa wrestling is thriving or ESPN would drop them.  

you said 15 years ago and referenced a match that happened 31 years ago as a source

[Caveira]

Just now, Hammerlock3 said:

you said 15 years ago and referenced a match that happened 31 years ago as a source

Fair    Ha… I watch the match every now and then and it sucks you can’t see it all

Edited August 11 by Caveira

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, Hammerlock3 said:

you said 15 years ago and referenced a match that happened 31 years ago as a source

Great match!

[Antitroll2828]

6 hours ago, VakAttack said:

I'm just admitting my own mistakes.  I believed taht the only reason Dake lost was because of the qualification procedure that kept giving Burroughs byes.  I thought there would have been more splitting of the appearances without that.  I think I was wrong.

You weren’t really wrong , wrestling wise Kyle and JB were close to equals but JB has that special killer instinct that you are either born with or not , and probably because of that killer instinct (the mamba mentality for you BBall fans) he became the most clutch wrestler in USA history. The difference bet

[Antitroll2828]

6 hours ago, VakAttack said:

I'm just admitting my own mistakes.  I believed taht the only reason Dake lost was because of the qualification procedure that kept giving Burroughs byes.  I thought there would have been more splitting of the appearances without that.  I think I was wrong.

You weren’t really wrong , wrestling wise Kyle and JB were close to equals but JB has that special killer instinct that you are either born with or not , and probably because of that killer instinct (the mamba mentality for you BBall fans) he became the most clutch wrestler in USA history. The main difference between JB and these other guys is how many times did JB score in last second to snatch jaws from the defeat while these other guys lose those matches like regular mortals 

[scourge165]

6 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Russia didn’t send their best athletes. How many medals do we have if they did? Do we think Iran, Japan, and Russia should all be better than the US?
 

Look at the TV ratings of NCAAs by year if you don’t believe that there are serious problems. 

Probably 7. That's my guess. 

[1032004]

6 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

The most important concept to add is neutral exposure points. American wrestlers scamble without caring whether they expose their back-the result is most lose the ability to scramble effectively internationally. There is still tons of scrambling in freestyle, but it’s just a different type of scrambling. We’ve seen folkstyle move towards this by limiting the time a wrestler can have his back exposed before it counting as a TD, but we need to go all the way with this rule. We would see absolutely epic sequences at NCAAs with neutral exposure points counting, and that alone would lead to USA becoming better than Russia.
 

Do you think the current exposure rules are ideal?  Maybe it’s my folkstyle bias but the way points can swing based on the slightest movement of who “initiated the move” is not great IMO.  I believe today alone there were multiple times where a move was initially scored as 4 for one wrestler but then changed to the other.  An 8 point swing from a challenge is crazy. 

I don’t hate exposure as a whole but I feel like you shouldn’t get points if the sequence ends with your opponent on top.

[scourge165]

29 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

You weren’t really wrong , wrestling wise Kyle and JB were close to equals but JB has that special killer instinct that you are either born with or not , and probably because of that killer instinct (the mamba mentality for you BBall fans) he became the most clutch wrestler in USA history. The main difference between JB and these other guys is how many times did JB score in last second to snatch jaws from the defeat while these other guys lose those matches like regular mortals 

I want to say this and be as clear as possible it's in no way questioning Burroughs greatness...just the narrative, but during his PEAK...when he was...what, 28 years old(about) he went to the Olympics, lost to two guys he'd beaten badly that year to not medal. That was in the midst of a run where he'd been winning year in and year out. 

So...as GREAT as Burroughs was, he ha one Olympic run. He won a spot on the Olympic team, won a Gold. He was very clearly dominant, but even JB went back as the heavy favorite and lost two straight both on the front and then on the back side.

 

My point being ONLY that is JB can lose TWO matches like that...it just gives you(or at least me) some perspective on how these guys can lose to in the last seconds like Brooks or Lee could wrestle tight, Snyder could lose to a great young upstart or Dake...well, I think Dake was wound WAY too tight and had other shit going on. The meltdown in the Bronze match seemed weird. 

But generally speaking, hard for me to fault a guy too hard for losing ONE match at the Olympics. 

[1032004]

1 hour ago, billyhoyle said:

I don't think it will be tier 1 either. What I'd like is for it to just be close to as popular as it was 10-15 years ago.

If your metric is TV ratings, seems like it is if you compare to the number of TV subscribers.

 

Don’t get me wrong I wish wrestling was more popular, but I don’t think it’s really any less popular than it was 15 years ago.

[billyhoyle]

9 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

If your metric is TV ratings, seems like it is if you compare to the number of TV subscribers.

 

Don’t get me wrong I wish wrestling was more popular, but I don’t think it’s really any less popular than it was 15 years ago.

NCAA Baseball, NCAA Lacrosse, and NCAA WBB are all seeing increased viewership for their championships....And the drop in wrestling viewership isn't parallel with the drop in households with cable, but has instead fallen dramatically over the past two years.

But sure, nothing is wrong with NCAA wrestling's popularity. No changes need to be made. Let's keep telling ourselves that. When programs start being dropped because of NIL, I guarantee you that the same people saying that there is nothing wrong (and you are not the only person who thinks this-it is most people who do) will say that we did everything we could. 

[1032004]

3 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

NCAA Baseball, NCAA Lacrosse, and NCAA WBB are all seeing increased viewership for their championships....And the drop in wrestling viewership isn't parallel with the drop in households with cable, but has instead fallen dramatically over the past two years.

But sure, nothing is wrong with NCAA wrestling's popularity. No changes need to be made. Let's keep telling ourselves that. When programs start being dropped because of NIL, I guarantee you that the same people saying that there is nothing wrong (and you are not the only person who thinks this-it is most people who do) will say that we did everything we could. 

I’m not saying there is nothing wrong.  I’m saying the same things were wrong 15 years ago, heck with some of the recent rule changes less may be “wrong” now vs 15 year ago. What are you saying has changed to cause this alleged decline in popularity?