For those wondering if we should put an asterisk next to Dake's gold medal if he wins the Olympics...

[wrestlingshoe]

In tennis, they do not put an asterisk next to a player's name when they win a grand slam after a top player does not participate or withdraws. In fact, this year's women's Wimbledon has had a few top players drop out because of injury and they are not talking about the diminished field of entrants. They are taking about how it shakes up the field. The same with the men, even though Federer and Nadal are no longer in the field, they are not diminishing the new champions accomplishments. 

You can only compete against who shows up. And, maybe we need to consider the fact that we may be in the course of overtaking Russia, for whatever reason. US depth at every weight is much improved over the last few years. Just look at 57. We have four Americans representing four countries and have a couple world and Olympic medals sitting at home. 

 

[Pa in Taiwan]

For those wondering if we should put an asterisk next to Dake's gold medal if he wins the Olympics... YES!

[jross]

No asterisk

[Ohio Elite]

No

[Le duke]

I don’t place an asterisk next to anyone pre-Soviet breakup, and I won’t place one here, either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AgaveMaria]

Anyone who keeps getting younger needs an asterisk. Anyone who wins so much on the mat against David Taylor but has never, ever won a fantasy match against him needs and asterisk.

In fact, give him two..., maybe a half dozen if you want.

[nhs67]

This entire concept is asinine.

Trying to not acknowledge or to acknowledge that the best will not be there due to political reasons is asinine.

[Spladle08]

I think everyone who pays attention to the sport should keep it in their back-pocket as a. asterisk for casual conversation with somebody who isn't as versed in the sport. 

Casual person: But Dake won the Olympics and blah blah blah 
You: Yes he did but that particular win is unique because.......

or 

Casual: Dake should have at least 1 Olympic title. 
Spladle08: He would've but Frank did Frank stuff..... WarChamizo, I loved the 2024 Olympics.  

Edited July 6 by Spladle08

[Pinnacle]

How many top Russians are repping other countries?

[alex1fly]

No asterisk. It’s competition. You compete against who shows up. Maybe Russia gets banned. Maybe the top guy gets the flu. No asterisk either way. 

[GrandOlm]

The modern olympics have not been about the best vs the best in wrestling. The soviet championships brackets were higher level than the olympic tournament at many weights for decades.  

From a wrestling purist stand, of course there is an asterisk. Russia has the best MFS and maybe the best GR team in world. 

But the modern olympic games are not the ancient olympics and they are also not a wrestling purist organization or anything close to that. They dignify ping pong and gymnastics more in a sportive sense than wrestling, allowing multiple competitors if they have a high enough level. 

The olympics are a begrudging showcase and promotional event for wrestling. To audiences and politicians that don't care or know much about the sport. In that sense there is no asterisk since the public doesn't care enough to know Russia excels at wrestling. 

[Truzzcat]

I think that most neutral fans will throw out "buts" and "ifs" in regard to Russia not being there. Which I think is only really fair to do at 74kg if Dake were to win. While Uguev, Sadulaev, Mamedov all very well could have won gold. All of them competed in worlds last year and failed to do so (only one of them came away with a medal). Chalk that up to whatever you want rust from not competing an off day etc... Point being Sidakov is the only guy who is the returning champ at an Olympic weight so I feel as though 74kg is the only weight someone could argue should have an asterisk and I would not be one of those people.

[peanut]

Only absolute wrestling nerds will care that Dake went 0-1 versus Sidakov and 0-1 versus Kadi, or that both were absent from the 2024 Olympics. They were both absent from 2021 worlds and 2022 worlds, and I have not seen anybody mention it. 

Edited July 8 by peanut

[Dogbone]

Dake has 2 World Titles at 79KG and 2 world titles at 74KG.

The only reason the Olympics have more weight in fans minds is because they bring in more non wrestling fans, just like all of the Olympic sports except basketball and golf.  

No one pays attention to gymnastics or swimming until the Olympics either.

Dake will be an Olympic champion and receive everything that comes with it, NBC coverage, Today Show, etc.  No one will reference that Russia didn't show.  

If some losers on the internet want to say, well he won 4 world titles but his Olympic title isn't as great because Sidakov didn't participate.  so what.

[fishbane]

2 hours ago, peanut said:

Only absolute wrestling nerds will care that Dake went 0-1 versus Sidakov and 0-1 versus Kadi, or that both were absent from the 2024 Olympics. They were both absent from 2021 worlds and 2022 worlds, and I have not seen anybody mention it. 

I've seen this get brought up in comparisons of Dake with Taylor and Burroughs.  This kind of stuff gets brought up in GOAT arguments which only really happen between wrestling nerds.

3 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

I think that most neutral fans will throw out "buts" and "ifs" in regard to Russia not being there. Which I think is only really fair to do at 74kg if Dake were to win. While Uguev, Sadulaev, Mamedov all very well could have won gold. All of them competed in worlds last year and failed to do so (only one of them came away with a medal). Chalk that up to whatever you want rust from not competing an off day etc... Point being Sidakov is the only guy who is the returning champ at an Olympic weight so I feel as though 74kg is the only weight someone could argue should have an asterisk and I would not be one of those people.

I think a lot of it will depend on what happens next year.  If those guys all win worlds next year it's a bigger thing.  What makes 1984 have an asterisk was that so many boycotting wrestlers won worlds in 1983 and 1985.  I've never heard anyone talk about an asterisk on the 1980 olympic champs medals.  This is even though there Beloglasov bros won weights that were won by boycotting Japanese wrestlers in 1979.  2024 will likely be closer to a 1980 asterisk than 1984.  If any of these guys have a problem with a 1980's asterisk they could just go to the World Friendship Games and set the record straight.

[pokemonster]

There's a difference between somebody getting injured or sick and not being allowed to compete when you're the best in the world and trying to. 

[GrandOlm]

My guesses as to what would have happened to the US golds in 1984 at some of the weights. 

MFS

100+: Salaman gold. Salman was the heavy favorite and owned Bruce 5-0 h2h. Almost all of Salman's losses were to other top soviets. I think Balla and Sandurski could have given Bruce tough outs.

100: Whoever the soviets sent. They won both worlds between the olympics. Young future legend Khabelov debuted in 85. Not a lot of data points for Banach.

GR

100:  Rostorotsky for Gold : Tomov would have been the nominal favorite but he was a notorious choker. If the soviets sent Rostorotsky; he was just too big and powerful for Blatnick to beat and silver would be his ceiling. If the soviets sent someone else because of seniority or whatever, maybe Blatnick could squeak by. He'd have to wrestle the tournament of his life, beat the Soviet, or hope Tomov chokes again.   

90: The Soviet (Kanygin) and Bulgarian (Komchev) were the favorites. An American did win gold at 85 but it wasn't Fraser and Houck was an anomaly of a win. 

 

[jross]

Is there an asterisk if Yaz wins, given the favored Taylor will not be there?  No.

Is there an asterisk if the favored wrestler is upset early, and the eventual champ doesn't wrestle them?  No.

Is there an asterisk when there are wrestlers at home that are better than the competitors in the bracket?  No.

Is there an asterisk from 2022 when Fujinami Akari missed the WC with an injury, and Dom Parrish won gold?  No.

Is there an asterisk when Iran loses to Israel by faked injury?  No.

The official record and recognition of the champion remains valid.

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, jross said:

1) Is there an asterisk if Yaz wins, given the favored Taylor will not be there?  No.

2) Is there an asterisk if the favored wrestler is upset early, and the eventual champ doesn't wrestle them?  No.

3) Is there an asterisk when there are wrestlers at home that are better than the competitors in the bracket?  No.

4) Is there an asterisk from 2022 when Fujinami Akari missed the WC with an injury, and Dom Parrish won gold?  No.

5) Is there an asterisk when Iran loses to Israel by faked injury?  No.

The official record and recognition of the champion remains valid.

The only one that kind of applies here is the third item in your list.  Sidakov wasn't beaten out by someone from his country (1), he also didn't lose in the bracket (2), and he isn't injured (3) all of which are sporting related reasons and would seam to indicate he isn't the best in the world this year.  He also didn't refuse to enter or wrestle (5) for any reason personal, political, or otherwise.  

The IOC told him he couldn't enter because they didn't like how he might think about something which is different.  It is not a sporting reason at all and it isn't a decision Sidakov made  If you tell the best guy in the world he can't enter because you don't like how he thinks it kind of changes the meaning of winning the event from any other year.  Most years the World/Olympic champion is thought of as the best in the world that year.  That won't exactly be the case this year and at this weight especially.

[jross]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

The only one that kind of applies here is the third item in your list.  Sidakov wasn't beaten out by someone from his country (1), he also didn't lose in the bracket (2), and he isn't injured (3) all of which are sporting related reasons and would seam to indicate he isn't the best in the world this year.  He also didn't refuse to enter or wrestle (5) for any reason personal, political, or otherwise.  

The IOC told him he couldn't enter because they didn't like how he might think about something which is different.  It is not a sporting reason at all and it isn't a decision Sidakov made  If you tell the best guy in the world he can't enter because you don't like how he thinks it kind of changes the meaning of winning the event from any other year.  Most years the World/Olympic champion is thought of as the best in the world that year.  That won't exactly be the case this year and at this weight especially.

That is a valid point.

Is there an asterisk for Sidakov winning 2023 World's in September when Timur Bizhoev was not in the bracket?  No.

• Bizhoev beat Sidakov in the 2023 July Commonwealth Cup
• Sidakov did not have to beat Bizhoev to become the WC Russian rep

[Jon_Kozak]

29 minutes ago, jross said:

That is a valid point.

Is there an asterisk for Sidakov winning 2023 World's in September when Timur Bizhoev was not in the bracket?  No.

• Bizhoev beat Sidakov in the 2023 July Commonwealth Cup
• Sidakov did not have to beat Bizhoev to become the WC Russian rep

This argument doesn't really apply considering the circumstances around Sidakov making the 2023 team. 

Sidakov was allowed to sit out of Russian Nationals in 2023 because of his previous accomplishments. The Russian Wrestling Federation said the 74 kg spot would be determined by the winner of Russian Nationals vs Sidakov. Chermen Valiev won Russian Nationals over Timur Bizhoev and Sidakov beat Valiev in August of 2023. Valiev was originally supposed to wrestle Sidakov at the Commonwealth Cup but requested more time in between Russian Nationals and the wrestle-off. So Sidakov used the Commonwealth Cup as a "tune-up" event for his world team wrestle-off with Valiev. 

[jross]

17 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said:

This argument doesn't really apply considering the circumstances around Sidakov making the 2023 team. 

Sidakov was allowed to sit out of Russian Nationals in 2023 because of his previous accomplishments. The Russian Wrestling Federation said the 74 kg spot would be determined by the winner of Russian Nationals vs Sidakov. Chermen Valiev won Russian Nationals over Timur Bizhoev and Sidakov beat Valiev in August of 2023. Valiev was originally supposed to wrestle Sidakov at the Commonwealth Cup but requested more time in between Russian Nationals and the wrestle-off. So Sidakov used the Commonwealth Cup as a "tune-up" event for his world team wrestle-off with Valiev. 

My overall point is that the best wrestlers are not in the Olympics on any given year, and no asterisk is required.

Is it a more challenging to win a tournament with these wrestlers?

Rank	Name	Country	Previous
1	Zaurbek Sidakov	RUS	1
2	Kyle Dake	USA	2
3	Cherman Valiev	ALB	3
4	Jason Nolf	USA	4
5	Jordan Burroughs	USA	5
6	Magomedkhabib Kadimagomedov	BLR	6
7	Anzor Zakuev	RUS	NR
8	David Baev	RUS	7
9	Daichi Takatani	JPN	8
10	Tajmuraz Salkazanov	SVK	9
11	Razambek Zhamalov	UZB	11
12	Viktor Rassadin	TJK	NR
13	Georgios Kougioumtsidis	GRE	10
14	Khetik Tsabolov	SRB	12
15	Ali Abbas Rezaei	IRI	NR
16	Turan Bayramov	AZE	13

Or

Rank	Name	Country	Previous
1	Kyle Dake	United States	2
2	Daichi Takatani	Japan	4
3	Tajmuraz Salkazanov	Slovakia	5
4	Razambek Zhamalov	Uzbekistan	NR
5	Viktor Rassadin	Tajikistan	6
6	Cherman Valiev	Albania	7
7	Georgios Kougioumtsidis	Greece	8
8	Khetik Tsabolov	Serbia	9
9	Turan Bayramov	Azerbaijan	10
10	Younes Emami	Iran	11
11	Geandry Garzon	Cuba	13
12	Amr Hussen	Egypt	14
13	Anthony Montero	Venezuela	15
14	Iman Mahdavi	Refugee Team	NR
15	Bacar Ndum	Guinea-Bissau	16

Sidakov lost to Bizhoev a couple months before Worlds.  2023 Worlds would have been more challenging if Bizhoev was allowed to participate as opposed to Anthony Wesley (Cape Verde).

There is no need for an asterisk at 74KG.  

[fishbane]

39 minutes ago, jross said:

That is a valid point.

Is there an asterisk for Sidakov winning 2023 World's in September when Timur Bizhoev was not in the bracket?  No.

• Bizhoev beat Sidakov in the 2023 July Commonwealth Cup
• Sidakov did not have to beat Bizhoev to become the WC Russian rep

Sidakov had already been selected as the rep before that match.  Something like this could happen in the US too.  Someone who won the trials in April or May could be beaten by an American at an event in July.  It kind of happened in 2019 when Retherford won the trials over Diakomihalis and they both entered Yasar Dogu in July meeting in the first round.  Diakomihalis won that match and ultimately the tournament whilst Retherford lost in the repechage finishing 7th.  It's not exactly the same because those two met in the finals of the trials and the Yasar Dogu result was a reversal of that.  Retherford didn't ultimately win worlds that year anyway.  If Retherford had won I think most would have just said that we sent the right guy, but they were really close.  Instead some people questioned our selection process and thought we should have sent Diakomihalis, which was in part because of their controversial trials series.   Irregardless the World Champ doesn't have to be undefeated the entire year.  He just needs to qualify/get selected by his country and then win the tournament.  Sidakov did both.  Bizhoev did neither.

I know some countries might have a different selection processes and it is theoretically possible (not in the case of Retherford/Diakomihalis or even Sidakov/Bizhoev) for one wrestler be the best in the world and consistently winning everything simply to have the country's federation send someone else, but I can't think of a situation where that's happened.  Countries have an interest in sending their best guy.  When one wrestler is picked over another it's usually for a sporting reason though possibly a more subjective one.  I think the US had something like this in the world team procedures one year.  It was something like the national team coach could essentially invalidate the trials champ if the person wasn't a past world medalist and send the trials winner and another guy to some international tournament and whoever placed higher would wrestle at worlds.  I don't think it was ever used if it was the rep didn't change.  

[Jon_Kozak]

43 minutes ago, jross said:

My overall point is that the best wrestlers are not in the Olympics on any given year, and no asterisk is required.

Is it a more challenging to win a tournament with these wrestlers?

Rank	Name	Country	Previous
1	Zaurbek Sidakov	RUS	1
2	Kyle Dake	USA	2
3	Cherman Valiev	ALB	3
4	Jason Nolf	USA	4
5	Jordan Burroughs	USA	5
6	Magomedkhabib Kadimagomedov	BLR	6
7	Anzor Zakuev	RUS	NR
8	David Baev	RUS	7
9	Daichi Takatani	JPN	8
10	Tajmuraz Salkazanov	SVK	9
11	Razambek Zhamalov	UZB	11
12	Viktor Rassadin	TJK	NR
13	Georgios Kougioumtsidis	GRE	10
14	Khetik Tsabolov	SRB	12
15	Ali Abbas Rezaei	IRI	NR
16	Turan Bayramov	AZE	13

Or

Rank	Name	Country	Previous
1	Kyle Dake	United States	2
2	Daichi Takatani	Japan	4
3	Tajmuraz Salkazanov	Slovakia	5
4	Razambek Zhamalov	Uzbekistan	NR
5	Viktor Rassadin	Tajikistan	6
6	Cherman Valiev	Albania	7
7	Georgios Kougioumtsidis	Greece	8
8	Khetik Tsabolov	Serbia	9
9	Turan Bayramov	Azerbaijan	10
10	Younes Emami	Iran	11
11	Geandry Garzon	Cuba	13
12	Amr Hussen	Egypt	14
13	Anthony Montero	Venezuela	15
14	Iman Mahdavi	Refugee Team	NR
15	Bacar Ndum	Guinea-Bissau	16

Sidakov lost to Bizhoev a couple months before Worlds.  2023 Worlds would have been more challenging if Bizhoev was allowed to participate as opposed to Anthony Wesley (Cape Verde).

There is no need for an asterisk at 74KG.  

I agree that there shouldn't be an asterisk but unfortunately many will say there is - especially at 74 kg where Sidakov has established himself as the best guy in the world and is only being kept out due to things outside of his control.

I think there's room for a nuanced conversation here - it's different than 1984 primarily because there are so many Russians in the field. 25% of the bracket at 74 kg are Russians....there are 17 total Russians across every weight in men's freestyle

[fishbane]

38 minutes ago, jross said:

My overall point is that the best wrestlers are not in the Olympics on any given year, and no asterisk is required.

Is it a more challenging to win a tournament with these wrestlers?

Rank	Name	Country	Previous
1	Zaurbek Sidakov	RUS	1
2	Kyle Dake	USA	2
3	Cherman Valiev	ALB	3
4	Jason Nolf	USA	4
5	Jordan Burroughs	USA	5
6	Magomedkhabib Kadimagomedov	BLR	6
7	Anzor Zakuev	RUS	NR
8	David Baev	RUS	7
9	Daichi Takatani	JPN	8
10	Tajmuraz Salkazanov	SVK	9
11	Razambek Zhamalov	UZB	11
12	Viktor Rassadin	TJK	NR
13	Georgios Kougioumtsidis	GRE	10
14	Khetik Tsabolov	SRB	12
15	Ali Abbas Rezaei	IRI	NR
16	Turan Bayramov	AZE	13

Or

Rank	Name	Country	Previous
1	Kyle Dake	United States	2
2	Daichi Takatani	Japan	4
3	Tajmuraz Salkazanov	Slovakia	5
4	Razambek Zhamalov	Uzbekistan	NR
5	Viktor Rassadin	Tajikistan	6
6	Cherman Valiev	Albania	7
7	Georgios Kougioumtsidis	Greece	8
8	Khetik Tsabolov	Serbia	9
9	Turan Bayramov	Azerbaijan	10
10	Younes Emami	Iran	11
11	Geandry Garzon	Cuba	13
12	Amr Hussen	Egypt	14
13	Anthony Montero	Venezuela	15
14	Iman Mahdavi	Refugee Team	NR
15	Bacar Ndum	Guinea-Bissau	16

Sidakov lost to Bizhoev a couple months before Worlds.  2023 Worlds would have been more challenging if Bizhoev was allowed to participate as opposed to Anthony Wesley (Cape Verde).

There is no need for an asterisk at 74KG.  

The toughest tournament possible is a theoretical thing that has never been wrestled.  I don't think anyone ever said that winning the Olympics without Russia is easy or even that the 74KG bracket will be easier than any 74kg bracket from any other year.  You could probably find a 74kg World/Olympic bracket from some year and I would say yes it is tougher in 2024 than that year.  It doesn't really matter though because it is easier than it should be and not for sporting reasons, doping, bad performances, objective rules, or a personal decision of any particular athlete to not compete.  It is because the IOC doesn't like what some athletes might think about a particular war.  So even if you find the easiest 74kg World/Olympic bracket in history I will probably still consider the champion the best wrestler in the world at that weight that particular year.  If the Olympic champion this year never beats Sidakov and Sidakov wasn't allowed to compete that probably won't be the case in 2024.