Coaching Carousel if John Smith retires

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 hours ago, Idaho said:

Oregon State's not a Power 5 school....that's funny. But anyway....

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Five_conferences

[Idaho]

3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Five_conferences

Not sure why you keep posting this unless you did t get the sarcasm of my post …”that’s funny’” ….. meaning the are a power 5 since they are in the pac 12.  Reread my response with a sarcasm filter. 

[Idaho]

13 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Nice try.  

Sarcasm.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Sarcasm.

/s or [s] is a good way to show that you are being sarcastic.  Otherwise, it is going to be taken at face value.  When you try to backtrack?  

[Idaho]

7 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

/s or [s] is a good way to show that you are being sarcastic.  Otherwise, it is going to be taken at face value.  When you try to backtrack?  

I am sorry you didn't' figure out that "Oregon State's not a power 5...that's funny" was sarcastic (s).  I am pretty sure 95% of the people who followed the conversation knew it was sarcasm (NOT s) - is that how you do that? Just trying to make it easy. Furthermore, if you did not know, I am an Oregon State fan and I am aware they are in the Pac 12 (s)   - Is that the correct symbol for a "little" sarcasm? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

I am sorry you didn't' figure out that "Oregon State's not a power 5...that's funny" was sarcastic (s).  I am pretty sure 95% of the people who followed the conversation knew it was sarcasm (NOT s) - is that how you do that? Just trying to make it easy. Furthermore, if you did not know, I am an Oregon State fan and I am aware they are in the Pac 12 (s)   - Is that the correct symbol for a "little" sarcasm? 

It is not.

[1032004]

10 hours ago, Idaho said:

I am sorry you didn't' figure out that "Oregon State's not a power 5...that's funny" was sarcastic (s).  I am pretty sure 95% of the people who followed the conversation knew it was sarcasm (NOT s) - is that how you do that? Just trying to make it easy. Furthermore, if you did not know, I am an Oregon State fan and I am aware they are in the Pac 12 (s)   - Is that the correct symbol for a "little" sarcasm? 

Yeah I got you @Idaho.  I’m not sure if @H82Losewas even talking about the traditional Power 5 though which isn’t really relevant to wrestling?  Maybe was trying to designate the “Power 5” as being the top 5 wrestling schools or something?

[SCSU142]

I wonder if the thought of coaching another one of his sons (Sam) in this case, has anything to do in his decision. 

[TexRef]

What about some of the other things to consider about the Okie State job? It is in Stillwater and that is no where near as nice as Corvallis, Oregon. Sure Okie State has the resources, fan support, and etc....but remember that there are guys out there like Kolat that didn't want a big school and wanted a small quiet community, and yes he said that years before moving to the Naval Academy. 

[Idaho]

31 minutes ago, TexRef said:

What about some of the other things to consider about the Okie State job? It is in Stillwater and that is no where near as nice as Corvallis, Oregon. Sure Okie State has the resources, fan support, and etc....but remember that there are guys out there like Kolat that didn't want a big school and wanted a small quiet community, and yes he said that years before moving to the Naval Academy. 

Very true... it definitely has to be the right fit,  just as any program has to be the right fit for the right coach. Sometimes bringing a mid range or lower tiered team to prominence or at least respectability, can afford that coach a lot of freedom and control. Sometimes that's hard to leave for a place where the board, boosters, etc.maintain the control and make sure the coach knows who is running the show. I get that the coach has people they answer to, but the freedom and control factor can definitely vary from program to program. I'm not on the "in" with OkState so I don't know if this is a factor or not in their next hiring, whenever that will be.  Others more in tune with the backstage workings of their program can probably discuss that aspect.   

[Idaho]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Yeah I got you @Idaho.  I’m not sure if @H82Losewas even talking about the traditional Power 5 though which isn’t really relevant to wrestling?  Maybe was trying to designate the “Power 5” as being the top 5 wrestling schools or something?

Agree...wrestling is a little different.... We did take down Florida last week... BUILD THE DAM! 

[Formally140]

On 12/28/2022 at 10:13 AM, Idaho said:

Very true... it definitely has to be the right fit,  just as any program has to be the right fit for the right coach. Sometimes bringing a mid range or lower tiered team to prominence or at least respectability, can afford that coach a lot of freedom and control. Sometimes that's hard to leave for a place where the board, boosters, etc.maintain the control and make sure the coach knows who is running the show. I get that the coach has people they answer to, but the freedom and control factor can definitely vary from program to program. I'm not on the "in" with OkState so I don't know if this is a factor or not in their next hiring, whenever that will be.  Others more in tune with the backstage workings of their program can probably discuss that aspect.   

It’s most definitely easier to start a culture from scratch with more control than it is when there’s a “tradition” and you don’t have leeway

[fishbane]

On 12/24/2022 at 9:36 AM, Cowboy08 said:

Jim Zalesky was fired at Iowa after winning 3 National Titles. We haven't won one in almost 20 years. I'm sorry but 5 National Titles in 33 years when 4 of them came in one stretch isn't that great for arguably the best program in wrestling history.

In the 20 years before Smith got the job, OSU had only won 2 national team titles.  Smith has done a lot better than that and college wrestling has changed significantly since the OSU dominated the sport in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.

Really what coach has done better in the last 50 years?  It a short list.  Gable 15 national titles, Sanderson 9 national titles, Nichols 6 national titles, Smith 5 national titles.  The reality is that when OSU hires a replacement he will likely not do as well...  very few have.

[Cowboy08]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

In the 20 years before Smith got the job, OSU had only won 2 national team titles.  Smith has done a lot better than that and college wrestling has changed significantly since the OSU dominated the sport in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.

Really what coach has done better in the last 50 years?  It a short list.  Gable 15 national titles, Sanderson 9 national titles, Nichols 6 national titles, Smith 5 national titles.  The reality is that when OSU hires a replacement he will likely not do as well...  very few have.

5 titles..........in 30 years but 4 of them were in a row as part of a dynasty when he was coaching a group of all time great cowboys.  Smith's coaching is honestly overrated IMHO, It just goes to show what Cael has done, and so quickly, is absolutely unheard of. 

[Eagle26]

37 minutes ago, Cowboy08 said:

5 titles..........in 30 years but 4 of them were in a row as part of a dynasty when he was coaching a group of all time great cowboys.  Smith's coaching is honestly overrated IMHO, It just goes to show what Cael has done, and so quickly, is absolutely unheard of. 

Ever heard of Dan Gable?

Cael and Gable are definitely in a league of their own, but Smiths coaching record is pretty incredible too. “Only” 5 titles in 30 years, but in the last 30 years, no TEAM other than Iowa or Penn Sate won more titles than that! Plus, factor in he also had 11 other top 3 finishes in that time. That’s pretty darn good.

[fishbane]

3 hours ago, Cowboy08 said:

5 titles..........in 30 years but 4 of them were in a row as part of a dynasty when he was coaching a group of all time great cowboys.  Smith's coaching is honestly overrated IMHO, It just goes to show what Cael has done, and so quickly, is absolutely unheard of. 

You make it sounds like 4 in a row with all-time greats is a knock against Smith.  Literally no coach has won more than 4 in a row since the scholarship limit changed to 9.9.  Not even Cael and Gable.  And 4 titles alone would be good enough to be the 3rd best NCAA program of the past 50 years behind Iowa and Penn State.  No program outside of those two have won 4 or more total titles in the past 50 years.  OSU only won 3 outside of this dynasty.

All coaches in the 9.9 scholarship era with multiple NCAA titles won at least back-to-back titles followed by a drought.  The only ones that were able to win more than 1 outside of their big streak was Gable and Sanderson.  Brands won 3 in a row with an all-time great recruiting class followed by an 11 year drought before getting his 4th.  Zalesky won 3 in a row and then never again.  J. Rob was back-to-back titles and 5 years later after OSU's dynasty won another.  

Smith is literally the 3rd greatest coach of the past half century.  He's 5th all time in individual national champions with 33. Only Gable (45), Nichols (38), Gallagher (37), and Cael (34) have more.  It's a rate of more than 1 per year, which is better than Brands, better than Jay Robinson, better than Rob Koll, better than Bobby Douglas, better than Tom Ryan, better than any PSU coach outside of Cael, better than any Iowa coach outside of Gable.  Only 5 programs have more individual national champions than Smith has coached (OSU, Iowa, ISU, OU, and PSU).  It's more champions that storied programs like Lehigh, Minnesota, Michigan, Cornell, and Ohio State have in their entire history.

Smith has coached 150 AAs which is 3rd all time behind only Nichols (156) and Gable (152).  It's an average of nearly 5 per year (4.84).  It's more AAs than in the history of Cornell, Illinois, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Nebraska.

[H82Lose]

Smith WAS a great coach.  Back in the day, EVERYONE knew who JS was, and his accomplishments. These young bucks weren't alive when he was winning the olympics.  Go look at Lovett on his recruiting.  He didn't know JS, but he knew Jordan Burroughs.  Tell me an okie state wrestler that he has "developed" from a good wrestler to a GREAT wrestler.  Just this year, Mastro shows he is declining, agree? Fix was and is always a stud, but do you feel like he has got "better". Plott maybe? I feel like Plott has got better, but it is hard to see kids that you are thinking, man he is growing in that room and getting better. I am not even a PSU fan, but you can see that growth every year. 

[MPhillips]

39 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

Tell me an okie Ohio State wrestler that he has "developed" from a good wrestler to a GREAT wrestler.

Welcome to the club...

[1032004]

41 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

Smith WAS a great coach.  Back in the day, EVERYONE knew who JS was, and his accomplishments. These young bucks weren't alive when he was winning the olympics.  Go look at Lovett on his recruiting.  He didn't know JS, but he knew Jordan Burroughs.  Tell me an okie state wrestler that he has "developed" from a good wrestler to a GREAT wrestler.  Just this year, Mastro shows he is declining, agree? Fix was and is always a stud, but do you feel like he has got "better". Plott maybe? I feel like Plott has got better, but it is hard to see kids that you are thinking, man he is growing in that room and getting better. I am not even a PSU fan, but you can see that growth every year. 

Derek White

[Gus]

56 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

Smith WAS a great coach.  Back in the day, EVERYONE knew who JS was, and his accomplishments. These young bucks weren't alive when he was winning the olympics.  Go look at Lovett on his recruiting.  He didn't know JS, but he knew Jordan Burroughs.  Tell me an okie state wrestler that he has "developed" from a good wrestler to a GREAT wrestler.  Just this year, Mastro shows he is declining, agree? Fix was and is always a stud, but do you feel like he has got "better". Plott maybe? I feel like Plott has got better, but it is hard to see kids that you are thinking, man he is growing in that room and getting better. I am not even a PSU fan, but you can see that growth every year. 

Coleman Scott

[fishbane]

1 minute ago, MPhillips said:

Welcome to the club...

Haha,  I was thinking the same thing and was about to use Tom Ryan/Ohio State as an example.  Coaches don't get enough credit when top recruits pan out.  What Cael has done turning top recruits into all-time greats is highly abnormal.

45 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

Smith WAS a great coach.  Back in the day, EVERYONE knew who JS was, and his accomplishments. These young bucks weren't alive when he was winning the olympics.  Go look at Lovett on his recruiting.  He didn't know JS, but he knew Jordan Burroughs. 

Ridge Lovett might not have, but in Oklahoma everyone still knows about John Smith. Outside of OK he might not have the same name recognition he once enjoyed with high school wrestlers, but what OSU alum surpasses him in that regard?  Possibly Cormeir or Hendricks for entirely different reasons than Burroughs.

[fishbane]

4 minutes ago, Gus said:

Coleman Scott

Jamil Kelly is probably the top wrestler John Smith coached (I don't think he's coached an Olympic gold medalist) and his best finish in high school was 4th at the state tournament.