Defining ‘Generational Talent’

[Paul158]

14 minutes ago, 11986 said:

The cattle prod story was part of a Flo feature I think not that old SI article. Apparently Cary wasn’t great at getting out from bottom at some point and dad utilized some….creative….methods to correct that. 

Well some dad that used a creative cattle prod on their son would have got his ass kicked then I would have made a creative phone call to the Police and social services . Could you imagine a high school coach or a college using that creative method with their wrestlers? He would never be allowed to coach again after he got done serving his time in jail.

Edited April 28 by Paul158
missed a word.

[buckshot]

Generational Talent- At least one member of every PSU recruiting class every year

[jackwebster]

10 hours ago, 11986 said:

The cattle prod story was part of a Flo feature I think not that old SI article. Apparently Cary wasn’t great at getting out from bottom at some point and dad utilized some….creative….methods to correct that. 

Bingo. I conflated the two. Thanks for the second time!

[Old Dirty]

Its when you can give them the hips and punch your ticket to man's greatest sport

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 4/27/2024 at 1:31 AM, wrestle87 said:

He is, but before those two, how many world-level studs appeared out of maryland?

I mentally take the average across time since ~1970 and today, and if it gets more crowded than one for every 20 years, not a generational talent.

I don’t know any Maryland wrestling history prior to snyder.

Helen

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:48 PM, wrestle87 said:

Uh…brooks was a 4x champ up with the big boys and just dethroned the olympic champion at his weight.  Last time that happened was…Cael?

 

What Olympic champ did Cael dethrone while still in college?

[JimmyCinnabon]

I think it meant a lot more before we started seeing so many kids excel at the youth level. With so many clubs now and the focus on traveling and getting on the mat with the best competition in the country from a young age more and more kids are reaching levels that only one or two guys a generation reached in the past. 

It's so much harder to reach generational status when there are far more guys reaching insane heights as 14-18 year old.

[wrestle87]

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Helen

There it is, knew I was forgetting someone.  Which is rather weak of me considering at this point she is, or should be, flag bearer for USA wrestling.

[Paul158]

22 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

There it is, knew I was forgetting someone.  Which is rather weak of me considering at this point she is, or should be, flag bearer for USA wrestling.

I wouldn't put Amit Elor not there yet. But she is well on her way. By the age of 19 she has cruised to 6 World Gold medals. She just turned 20. She will have a chance for an Olympic Gold this summer. She will have a very tough Japanese opponent among others. She has a great support group and is mature beyond her years.   

[Le duke]

7 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

I wouldn't put Amit Elor not there yet. But she is well on her way. By the age of 19 she has cruised to 6 World Gold medals. She just turned 20. She will have a chance for an Olympic Gold this summer. She will have a very tough Japanese opponent among others. She has a great support group and is mature beyond her years.   

I hope she sticks with wrestling long term. 

It's definitely become more viable lately. Particularly if she links up with some RTC.

[wrestle87]

16 minutes ago, Le duke said:

I hope she sticks with wrestling long term. 

It's definitely become more viable lately. Particularly if she links up with some RTC.

Hopefully the women's side of the sport continues to evolve to have coaching/other positions available that allow her to stay in the game.

Gotta get with those Rudis folks and get them to throw her some equity or something like that.

[Truzzcat]

Morgan Turner could be on her way as well. she's beaten Jaclyn bouzakis 3 times and is 3-0 against her and Bouzakis beat two NCAA's 1 ranked woman by tech this season. She has a cadet cold and is probably on her way to another one this year. Took third in Illinois big class boys states last  year at 106 and I think she weighed like 95lbs.

[Paul158]

3 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

Morgan Turner could be on her way as well. she's beaten Jaclyn bouzakis 3 times and is 3-0 against her and Bouzakis beat two NCAA's 1 ranked woman by tech this season. She has a cadet cold and is probably on her way to another one this year. Took third in Illinois big class boys states last  year at 106 and I think she weighed like 95lbs.

Wasn't Jaclyn a freshmen in high school then 40KG.. What were the scores of their matches. 

[MPhillips]

 

18 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Wasn't Jaclyn a freshmen in high school then 40KG.. What were the scores of their matches. 

Maybe even 37kg...

[Jim L]

5 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

What Olympic champ did Cael dethrone while still in college?

Didn't he beat Les Gutches to make his first world team while still in college.

I know Gutches was not an Olympic champ, but was a world champ, so pretty close.

[Gantry]

IIRC Cael lost to Gutches in a close match where he dominated the TD battle when they faced off. 

[Jim L]

I think generational talent is different than generational results. I don't remember anybody thinking Brooks was clearly a #1 guys coming into Penn State. He has obviously exceeded those expectation.

In my mind, the last generational talent we had was Gable Steveson. He very early on dominated Heavies like no one I have ever seen before. His results lagged a bit until he improved his tactics and mental game.  

[PortaJohn]

6 minutes ago, Jim L said:

I don't remember anybody thinking Brooks was clearly a #1 guys coming into Penn State. He has obviously exceeded those expectation.

I was the only guy on the old MatForum saying he was and was laughed at for proclaiming it.

[Truzzcat]

35 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Wasn't Jaclyn a freshmen in high school then 40KG.. What were the scores of their matches. 

2-1 at Fargo last year

10-0 and 5-3 at u17 trials

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

27 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Didn't he beat Les Gutches to make his first world team while still in college.

I know Gutches was not an Olympic champ, but was a world champ, so pretty close.

 

26 minutes ago, Gantry said:

IIRC Cael lost to Gutches in a close match where he dominated the TD battle when they faced off. 

This is what happened; it seems as if a lot of people misremember it.  I think Gutches hit a couple feet to backs to win.

[Jim L]

18 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

 

This is what happened; it seems as if a lot of people misremember it.  I think Gutches hit a couple feet to backs to win.

Yes. My memory have become all jumbled.. I think I am combining Cael losing a close match to Gutches, with a young Gutches beating World Champ Kevin Jackson

[Wrestleknownothing]

It is hard to define generational talent statistically.

If you look at four timers, you are limited to the last 50 years and they are coming thicker and faster. The gap between four timers was 20, 8, 11, 2, 7, 1, and 0 tournaments.

If you look at 100%ers, there are 25 of them, which seems too much for generational in a 93 tournament span.

Narrowing it down to undefeated is a bit strange too. It used to be a lot more common to be undefeated. From the 30's to the 60's there were 9 undefeated wrestlers. And the gaps were 1, 0, 4, 8, 2, 9, 5, and 4 tournaments. The gap to The One We Were Promised was another 36 tournaments, and it has been 22 tournaments (with a 23rd - 26th guaranteed) since that magical moment.

So, I guess we are left with the eye test. Or maybe it is the GOAT conversation we had previously. My contention was that there is only ever one GOAT. That GOAT has to surpass the previous GOAT to be the GOAT. But that isn't really the same as generational, is it?

[BAC]

21 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

 

This is what happened; it seems as if a lot of people misremember it.  I think Gutches hit a couple feet to backs to win.

Yup.  2000 U.S. Open:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzEMulzxxM

 

I don't think they ever met again.  Cael got hurt at OTTs that year, and I think Les retired after that.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

19 minutes ago, BAC said:

Yup.  2000 U.S. Open:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzEMulzxxM

 

I don't think they ever met again.  Cael got hurt at OTTs that year, and I think Les retired after that.

I think Gutches lost wrestle-off to Charles Burton in Fargo.(I was there)

I remember watching Cael at trials.  I was impressed, but it also looked like he may have been trying to break Mike Van Arsdale's leg.  It was stopped repeatedly.  It would be nice if someone had a video? Van Arsdale won the bout btw.

Edited April 30 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Old Dirty]

22 hours ago, Gantry said:

IIRC Cael lost to Gutches in a close match where he dominated the TD battle when they faced off. 

Gutches 5'd him