Is GOAT Talk in Wrestling ONLY Centered Around Championships?

[blueandgold]

With all of the recent media coverage of Caitlin Clark in Women's Basketball and what she's done during her tenure at Iowa despite never winning an NCAA Championship, I am curious if the same kind of conversations can be held in wrestling even if they rarely are. As a Hawkeye, Caitlin Clark has been a three-time NCAA season scoring leader, named player of the year twice by three different publications, a Sullivan Award winner, Big Ten player of the year three times, first-team All-Big Ten four times, a three-time unanimous first-team All-American, and the NCAA Division I all-time leading scorer among other accolades. Despite her elite résumé, she is a two-time national runner-up. Now, I understand basketball is a team sport, but take a career like Daton Fix's into consideration; he is a five-time Big 12 champion, a four-time NCAA runner-up, a U.S. Open champion, Pan Am and Pan Am Games champion, and UWW world silver medalist while part of the Cowboys. Is he considered to be in GOAT/All-Time Great talks the same way athletes from other sports are, or is it negated due to his lack of NCAA championships? For a hypothetical, let's say a wrestler in the Big Ten won everything imaginable minus the Hodge and NCAA title (ex.: Fix), could he still be in contention with a résumé like this?

Fictional Career (For Post)

• 131-4 career record
• Four-time NCAA Finalist
• Four-time Big Ten Champion
• Three-time Most Dominant Wrestler
• Three-time Gorriaran Award
• NCAA season takedowns leader
• NCAA season escapes leader
• NCAA Division I all-time takedowns leader
• Three-time Big Ten Wrestler of the Year
• Big Ten Freshman of the Year
• NWCA All-Rookie Team

Edited April 11 by blueandgold

[Hammerlock3]

its an individual sport. You can't hold Walter Johnson responsible for the Senators being terrible, you can hold him responsible for howmany people he struck out. Hey sorry i somehow just saw you made this point, but i think its pivotal.

Maybe I could ask this to clarify, what is Fix great at?

 

Edited April 11 by Hammerlock3

[Wrestleknownothing]

No. He was not the greatest wrestler of his time, not even remotely close, so how can he be in the conversation all-time?

[NM1965]

3 hours ago, blueandgold said:

With all of the recent media coverage of Caitlin Clark in Women's Basketball and what she's done during her tenure at Iowa despite never winning an NCAA Championship, I am curious if the same kind of conversations can be held in wrestling even if they rarely are. As a Hawkeye, Caitlin Clark has been a three-time NCAA season scoring leader, named player of the year twice by three different publications, a Sullivan Award winner, Big Ten player of the year three times, first-team All-Big Ten four times, a three-time unanimous first-team All-American, and the NCAA Division I all-time leading scorer among other accolades. Despite her elite résumé, she is a two-time national runner-up. Now, I understand basketball is a team sport, but take a career like Daton Fix's into consideration; he is a five-time Big 12 champion, a four-time NCAA runner-up, a U.S. Open champion, Pan Am and Pan Am Games champion, and UWW world silver medalist while part of the Cowboys. Is he considered to be in GOAT/All-Time Great talks the same way athletes from other sports are, or is it negated due to his lack of NCAA championships? For a hypothetical, let's say a wrestler in the Big Ten won everything imaginable minus the Hodge and NCAA title (ex.: Fix), could he still be in contention with a résumé like this?

Fictional Career (For Post)

• 131-4 career record
• Four-time NCAA Finalist
• Four-time Big Ten Champion
• Three-time Most Dominant Wrestler
• Three-time Gorriaran Award
• NCAA season takedowns leader
• NCAA season escapes leader
• NCAA Division I all-time takedowns leader
• Three-time Big Ten Wrestler of the Year
• Big Ten Freshman of the Year
• NWCA All-Rookie Team

Ultimately guys who didn't win NCAA titles every year they wrestled won't be considered for GOAT in college wrestling. That's just how it is. Too bad for late bloomers who may have gotten so good by their last year that they literally were one of the greatest ever, like John Smith or Jordan Burroughs.  I don't even think 4 titles is enough to guarantee a person is a GOAT either because then people look at how dominant guys were as well. Cael was dominant from start to finish, no doubt about it. Dake was tough all 4 years he was champ, but he didn't show the domination that Cael did. None of the other 4 timers come close to those guys except maybe Brooks. 

Who are you describing in your stats above? 

[jross]

If there were team championships but not individual championships, yes.

[Dark Energy]

I’m picturing a situation where the wrestler pinned everyone he/she faced in the first period (including freestyle)…. Except for one opponent that simply had the recipe to beat him / her about 5 to 4 each time they wrestled and let’s say prevented two or three out of four NCAA championships.  

Yes - I can see GOAT talk.  But they need to be super dominant.  

[Hurricane Wrestling]

3 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

I’m picturing a situation where the wrestler pinned everyone he/she faced in the first period (including freestyle)…. Except for one opponent that simply had the recipe to beat him / her about 5 to 4 each time they wrestled and let’s say prevented two or three out of four NCAA championships.  

Yes - I can see GOAT talk.  But they need to be super dominant.  

Hard to be considered the GOAT if there's that one guy that always had your number.

[jchapman]

hard to be GOAT when you were never the greatest in your weight class in any season.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Spencer Lee is considered the Iowa GOAT even though he "only" won 3 NCAA titles

[ionel]

Jimmy is consider the Welsh GOAT.   

[ionel]

11 hours ago, blueandgold said:

Now, I understand basketball is a team sport, but take a career like Daton Fix's into consideration . Is he considered to be in GOAT ... 

 

Fix is the GOAT of 2s, one year he even doubled.  No one will ever out goat him.   

[Dogbone]

If you want to be considered the greatest in an individual sport you have to win it all.

Now, you could make an argument for people with less titles in a GOAT conversation (IMO).  Example,  Is DT the GOAT PSU wrestler despite having less titles?   I don't think titles are the end all be all but, yes you have to win 1 if not more than 1 to be a GOAT.

[Idaho]

Cael won 4 individual titles....but didn't win a team title as a wrestler. Still the GOAT.  There is no individual title separate from team in basketball.... only stats and subjective awards. You can win the Heisman without being on the championship team. 

[Caveira]

On 4/10/2024 at 10:44 PM, blueandgold said:

he is a five-time Big 12 champion, a four-time NCAA runner-up, a U.S. Open champion, Pan Am and Pan Am Games champion, and UWW world silver medalist while part of the Cowboys.

he is a one time confirmed cheater, five-time Big 12 champion, a four-time NCAA runner-up, a U.S. Open champion, Pan Am and Pan Am Games champion, and UWW world silver medalist while part of the Cowboys.

fix’ed it.   

[bnwtwg]

On 4/11/2024 at 5:20 AM, Dark Energy said:

I’m picturing a situation where the wrestler pinned everyone he/she faced in the first period (including freestyle)…. Except for one opponent that simply had the recipe to beat him / her about 5 to 4 each time they wrestled and let’s say prevented two or three out of four NCAA championships.  

Yes - I can see GOAT talk.  But they need to be super dominant.  

This conversation has/is playing out currently albeit at the senior level: Kyle Snyder vs. Sadulaev. And because of Sadulaev's dominance, Snyder is not in GOAT contention despite being the closest actual comp to this hypothetical comparison where he has been ahead of everyone pretty much the entire time but he can't get past an even better wrestler who happens to be the absolute most outstanding wrestler of the past 10 years