New Iowa angst thread

[dragit]

I wasn't sure which Iowa angst thread this belonged in so narcissistically decided to start my own.

It seems to me that the issues at Iowa need to be broken down into what are things that are big picture things that are true that there aren't clear answers to and things that should be not to hard to address.

PSU has some big advantages.  Best wrestling state for recruits.  The best financial resources.  The best head coach, perhaps one of the two best ever.  Firing Brandses wouldn't change this.  

Tom Brands can't do anything about any of these.  He has a very good record as a coach.  Four championships, five really if you want to be fair.  With him as coach they have every season ticket sold and far higher attendance than during the Gable era.  He put together a great dual where they had more than 40,000 fans.  And it sounds like he's done a nice job with fundraising and facilities.  And he's an Iowa icon.  I'm not confident that changing the head coach would be a positive transformation.

But there are definitely things that they have problems with that could be changed without much problem.  Two that come to mind were demonstrated, as they are annually, in last night's dual.  They appear to lag far, far behind Penn State with respect to strength/body coaching and upper weights wrestling coaching.

Penn State's guys seem to develop much better physically and to stay more healthy than Iowa's.  They have many guys who come in skinny and athletic and get much stronger.  Retherford, RBY, Haines, etc., etc.  Haines was an absolute brute last night.  And the issue of Iowa guys who get badly injured and/or look worn out as their careers progress receives a lot of discussion on this board.  It's a dangerous sport, but it seems like Penn State has this problem much less.  I would think that Iowa could close this gap with the best strength coach they could find.

This is all by one observer's eye test combined with what I see from other commenters.  The other place this seems to be true is in the wrestling coaching of the middle and upper weights.  I think that Terry Brands has a very good record with the results of his wrestling coaching at 125, 133 in particular.  But as you go up in weight it seems obvious to me that the Penn State coaches, led by Cunningham, have produced much better results.  Morningstar and Telford would not seem to be anywhere near this level.  I think Iowa could close this gap with the best upper weight coach they could find.  

 

[dragit]

I can't figure out how to edit.  But I'd also say that there could be other things in the category of tangible things that could be addressed besides the two I identify, which I invite others to suggest.

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 minutes ago, dragit said:

I wasn't sure which Iowa angst thread this belonged in so narcissistically decided to start my own.

Jimmy approves this message.

[alex1fly]

As an outsider, I have to think that the Brands’ bad attitudes and constant “us vs them” demeanors wear down their athletes. It’s probably hard to stay motivated for 4-6 years when working for guys who’s emotional range seems to start and stop at “f*** you”.

Again I don’t know, just my observations on a less tangible part of leading/coaching. 

[Hammerlock3]

35 minutes ago, dragit said:

I can't figure out how to edit.  But I'd also say that there could be other things in the category of tangible things that could be addressed besides the two I identify, which I invite others to suggest.

you edit by clicking those three little dots in the top right within 15 minutes of posting i think.

[Hammerlock3]

iowa's main problem is being in the unpleasant position of being the only team that gets compared to PSU in a meaningful way.

[1032004]

1 hour ago, dragit said:

I wasn't sure which Iowa angst thread this belonged in so narcissistically decided to start my own.

It seems to me that the issues at Iowa need to be broken down into what are things that are big picture things that are true that there aren't clear answers to and things that should be not to hard to address.

PSU has some big advantages.  Best wrestling state for recruits.  The best financial resources.  The best head coach, perhaps one of the two best ever. 

 

 

Perhaps, lol.

I’m not sure the “PSU is healthier” narrative is really true.   They have certainly had their fair share of injuries.

I can’t speak to how good the upper weight coaches are, but Iowa has certainly had their fair share of successful upper weights including many that improved.  Cassioppi, Warner, Brands, etc.  Their biggest problem this year is not teaching them to not gamble, although those guys probably only would’ve saved them a couple team points last night.

I don’t really get the “Iowa angst” as a result of last night anyway, it pretty much went about as expected, except more people thought Woods would win and not Rathjen.  The only surprising result IMO was Franek getting dominated, but he wasn’t really expected to win so I don’t think last night changes his outlook for NCAA’s much.

[dragit]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Perhaps, lol.

We probably have different senses of humor.  

I said that Cael is "perhaps one of the two best ever."

I think most would agree Gable is better than Cael.  21/21 Big Tens.  15 national championships, 9 in a row.

So is it laughable to suggest Ed Gallagher might be ahead of Cael too?  According to his Hall of Fame bio, he had 19 undefeated teams in 23 seasons; in 13 national tournaments won 10 and tied for first once; and is credited with being the innovator of modern folkstyle wrestling from applying his "engineering knowledge of leverage and stress to the development of more than 400 wrestling holds."  I can't see any view of the facts under which a reasonable person would find that laughable.

While it's a tougher argument, I also personally don't think it's laughable for someone to put Harold Nichols third after Gable and Gallagher.  He won 6 NCAAs and finished in the top 4 27 straight years.  And if I'm counting correctly, Cael has had two of his college wrestlers win Olympic medals in the four Olympics contested when he has been a college head coach.  Nichols had three wrestlers win a medal in a single Olympics, at a time when winning medals was much harder for U.S. wrestlers due to the disparity between senior level funding between the Soviets and Americans.

[AnklePicker]

Iowa has very poor defense once you get to their legs. Caliendo seemed clueless on defense. They need to bring in someone from outside of their program. Telford and Morningstar weren’t exactly technical wizards. They should go hard after someone like Yianni as a coach. Not head but high up. 

[BIGTENFANBOY]

Metcalf to Gilman - "Once you leave the bubble you will understand"

Years later

Gilman to Metcalf - "I apologize, and you were right. I get it now."

 

That right there explains the problem at Iowa.

As for the Iowa/PSU comparision... Iowa gets constantly compared to PSU because theyre constantly comparing themselves to PSU. If they would focus on imdproving themselves and being the best versions of themselves, maybe they would catch PSU. Instead theyre focused on and obsessed with chasing PSU. They bring this mindset on themselves.

Edited February 11 by BIGTENFANBOY

[Le duke]

Iowa has very poor defense once you get to their legs. Caliendo seemed clueless on defense. They need to bring in someone from outside of their program. Telford and Morningstar weren’t exactly technical wizards. They should go hard after someone like Yianni as a coach. Not head but high up. 

The funny thing is that the Iowa radio crew was commenting on how Bartlett was just leaving his right leg out there. Like BB isn’t aware of that.

Uh, yeah. He knows. He’s one of the best counter attackers in the country. He doesn’t panic when someone gets to his leg; he looks to score. Iowa is the complete opposite; they’d almost immediately belly out. Brooks, Haines and Starocci scored after being almost dead in the water on their opponents’ shots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CHROMEBIRD]

6 hours ago, alex1fly said:

As an outsider, I have to think that the Brands’ bad attitudes and constant “us vs them” demeanors wear down their athletes. It’s probably hard to stay motivated for 4-6 years when working for guys who’s emotional range seems to start and stop at “f*** you”.

Again I don’t know, just my observations on a less tangible part of leading/coaching. 

Great take. Brands has been criticized for a while now for the constant physical intensity of his program taking a visible toll on his guys, esp after NCAAs a few seasons ago when the team limped into the tournament burnt out and injured. He's supposedly toned it down, but I have my doubts that his version of "fun" isn't still absolutely brutal. Anyway, I would agree that the "us against the world" and "tougher, harder, better" schtick must wear some guys down mentally as well.

To be fair, it drove TnT when they wrestled (and it worked), and it's what they learned under Gable. I'm of the mind that the old bullying, relentless "Iowa Style" wrestling isn't enough today. The game has changed and best kids these days are too slick for it. I don't doubt that Tom and Terry teach technique and gameplan, but it seems like a bigger part of their coaching is along the lines of: "you gotta be stronger," "you have to wrestle better," "you have to be more ready," and other simplistic bs like that.

I think either Brands or Iowa Wrestling could really use some new perspectives to refresh Iowa Style wrestling for the 21st century. Look at Okie State these last several years, people saying that John Smith is equally stubborn in his ways with weight cutting and training and team culture, and he tries to keep doing what worked for him in the past, so of course results fall short of expectations. Fast forward to this season, Coleman Scott injects new life to the program and we already see things changing for the better. It might be time for Iowa to do the same.

[wrestle87]

This is the old, now regularly rehashed story coming out of Iowa.

Yes TnT have great success, but they are dyed in the wool old guard coaches who are still reading from the same playbook gable handed them.  They are the purest athlete distillate of the gable era, but without the athlete knowhow that gable has, and Cael clearly has too, just in a different way.

If anyone on here has read Gable’s old coaching books, he talked tirelessly about the importance of understanding athletes as individuals, and maintaining the right headspace for the athlete.  Now, he clearly only got a specific cross-section of the population coming to him, those who were willing to put up with him or who thought like him, bc wrestling is the outlet for his own internal rage.  He just drove guys so hard and so emblematically that the style embossed itself on the sport for 40 years.  

Then Ben Askren came along, as the first glimmer of a different way, and Cael has meaningfully refined his approach to the mental side of things.  It is so clear that PSU has figured out the mental side of approaching competition as fierce as wrestling, that everyone who touches the program improves.  Listen to any of the (rare) interviews PSU guys give about mindset and the focus from Cael, they all deemphasize the heightened negative emotions associated with competition.

The next major difference, I believe to be the largest, and also directly related to the mental side of things, is PSU attracts guys and they don’t leave.  TnT meanwhile have burnt bridges right and left with their best athletes, tirelessly chasing the next thing instead of developing a good base of young graduates to support the ranks.  They have a very bad (high) rate of eventually betraying their best guys or running them out of the program.  Go back and look at their guys who have won ncaa titles during their tenure, and count how many are still involved in the Hawkeye program or have a good thing to say about those guys.  The number is low.

For anecdotal evidence, let’s individually remember the stories of metcalf, ramos, gilman, and spencer lee to name a few.  I don’t know St John’s story, but they missed on him too.

Ultimately, certain personalities and coaching strategies are short term effective, long term caustic.  Others actually succeed in building positively in the long term.  The old school coaches are on the way out, the new school are dominating the sport (askren and cael).  They have a more comprehensive system which yields better outcomes, and it is really coming into sharp form with this cohort of athletes.

We all know who the best coach ever is, he just hasn't been at it long enough to have accumulated the titles.

[Southend]

10 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

you edit by clicking those three little dots in the top right within 15 minutes of posting i think.

Thanks. An old guy can learn new things 

[1032004]

4 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

They have a very bad (high) rate of eventually betraying their best guys or running them out of the program.  Go back and look at their guys who have won ncaa titles during their tenure, and count how many are still involved in the Hawkeye program or have a good thing to say about those guys.  The number is low.

For anecdotal evidence, let’s individually remember the stories of metcalf, ramos, gilman, and spencer lee to name a few.  I don’t know St John’s story, but they missed on him too.

If this is supposed to be a list of guys that “don’t have good things to say about the program,” then Spencer Lee shouldn’t be on it.

I saw someone earlier mention Metcalf making comments to Gilman whille Gilman was there and Metcalf was gone?  Is there an article or something about that, I don’t recall that.

Has Gilman even “not had good things to say about the program”?  Don’t really recall that either.  It more just seems like he’s a PSU fanboy now from what I’ve seen

[AnklePicker]

6 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

This is the old, now regularly rehashed story coming out of Iowa.

Yes TnT have great success, but they are dyed in the wool old guard coaches who are still reading from the same playbook gable handed them.  They are the purest athlete distillate of the gable era, but without the athlete knowhow that gable has, and Cael clearly has too, just in a different way.

If anyone on here has read Gable’s old coaching books, he talked tirelessly about the importance of understanding athletes as individuals, and maintaining the right headspace for the athlete.  Now, he clearly only got a specific cross-section of the population coming to him, those who were willing to put up with him or who thought like him, bc wrestling is the outlet for his own internal rage.  He just drove guys so hard and so emblematically that the style embossed itself on the sport for 40 years.  

Then Ben Askren came along, as the first glimmer of a different way, and Cael has meaningfully refined his approach to the mental side of things.  It is so clear that PSU has figured out the mental side of approaching competition as fierce as wrestling, that everyone who touches the program improves.  Listen to any of the (rare) interviews PSU guys give about mindset and the focus from Cael, they all deemphasize the heightened negative emotions associated with competition.

The next major difference, I believe to be the largest, and also directly related to the mental side of things, is PSU attracts guys and they don’t leave.  TnT meanwhile have burnt bridges right and left with their best athletes, tirelessly chasing the next thing instead of developing a good base of young graduates to support the ranks.  They have a very bad (high) rate of eventually betraying their best guys or running them out of the program.  Go back and look at their guys who have won ncaa titles during their tenure, and count how many are still involved in the Hawkeye program or have a good thing to say about those guys.  The number is low.

For anecdotal evidence, let’s individually remember the stories of metcalf, ramos, gilman, and spencer lee to name a few.  I don’t know St John’s story, but they missed on him too.

Ultimately, certain personalities and coaching strategies are short term effective, long term caustic.  Others actually succeed in building positively in the long term.  The old school coaches are on the way out, the new school are dominating the sport (askren and cael).  They have a more comprehensive system which yields better outcomes, and it is really coming into sharp form with this cohort of athletes.

We all know who the best coach ever is, he just hasn't been at it long enough to have accumulated the titles.

There’s also the technical side. Ben and Max and Cael and co are evolving the sport. Funk, far ankle defense, understanding every nuance of every position.  The Brands brothers are tremendous positional technicians, I’m just not sure they are evolving and they are definitely not great at coaching what to do once someone gets in our your legs. Their physical stature influences their style. It’s not for everyone. 

[BIGTENFANBOY]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

If this is supposed to be a list of guys that “don’t have good things to say about the program,” then Spencer Lee shouldn’t be on it.

I saw someone earlier mention Metcalf making comments to Gilman whille Gilman was there and Metcalf was gone?  Is there an article or something about that, I don’t recall that.

Has Gilman even “not had good things to say about the program”?  Don’t really recall that either.  It more just seems like he’s a PSU fanboy now from what I’ve seen

A few years when Gilman was still with the HWC and shortly after winning world silver, he and Metcalf had a confrontation at an event at a bar. Forget the name of the event, but the bottomline is Gilman was calling Metcalf a traitor for going to ISU. Metcalf responded with "once you leave the bubble you will understand"

Few years later, Gilman runs into Metcalf and apologizes for the altercation and tells Metcalf "you were right, i get it now."

Metcalf talks about it in an interview floating around on youtube. Ill have to hunt it down.

[Idaho]

Curious to hear from Iowa fans about this... If the Brands brothers were coaching at a different school, would they have been/would be as successful as they have been at Iowa? I'm not one to go out and fire them tomorrow....but is their "Iowa Style" going back decades now transferrable to other programs or is Iowa their own thing? To me, and I am an outsider looking in, it seems that when that time comes for a new staff, it might necessitate a new philosophy and identity.... or is that even possible. Lots to digest there. 

[BIGTENFANBOY]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

If this is supposed to be a list of guys that “don’t have good things to say about the program,” then Spencer Lee shouldn’t be on it.

I saw someone earlier mention Metcalf making comments to Gilman whille Gilman was there and Metcalf was gone?  Is there an article or something about that, I don’t recall that.

Has Gilman even “not had good things to say about the program”?  Don’t really recall that either.  It more just seems like he’s a PSU fanboy now from what I’ve seen

Go to about 20 min in.

[BIGTENFANBOY]

The statement from Metcalf of about needing to "grow up" and "you know the environment there" speaks volumes to me.

Wrestlers should look back at their experience with positivity yet with Iowawe have multiple guys who were the team leader and face of the program during their years that obviously have negative feelings looking back. You gotta think hearing these stories hurts iowa's ability to recruit top talent.

[1032004]

29 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said:

The statement from Metcalf of about needing to "grow up" and "you know the environment there" speaks volumes to me.

Wrestlers should look back at their experience with positivity yet with Iowawe have multiple guys who were the team leader and face of the program during their years that obviously have negative feelings looking back. You gotta think hearing these stories hurts iowa's ability to recruit top talent.

That doesn’t really sound like either Gilman or Metcalf were saying anything negative about the Brands or the program.  Just talking about how someone currently at Iowa might think someone that leaves Iowa is a “traitor.”

Of course the counter-argument to that could be the alleged claim by Spencer Lee’s dad that Iowa was the only program that didn’t use negative recruiting in their recruitment of Spencer

[Husker_Du]

17 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

iowa's main problem is being in the unpleasant position of being the only team that gets compared to PSU in a meaningful way.

this is a brilliant observation.

[BIGTENFANBOY]

9 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

That doesn’t really sound like either Gilman or Metcalf were saying anything negative about the Brands or the program.  Just talking about how someone currently at Iowa might think someone that leaves Iowa is a “traitor.”

Of course the counter-argument to that could be the alleged claim by Spencer Lee’s dad that Iowa was the only program that didn’t use negative recruiting in their recruitment of Spencer

Neither comes out and outright says "negative" things about the program or enviornment, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see the negativity is implied. Also seeing the current day relationship between Iowa and several of its former top guys speaks volumes. If youre looking for outright trash talking i doubt youll find it. I dont know about you, but i assume moet top levep talent want to graduate from a school and leave with a long standing posiive relationship, not one with bitterness or anomosity.

[1032004]

23 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said:

Neither comes out and outright says "negative" things about the program or enviornment, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see the negativity is implied. Also seeing the current day relationship between Iowa and several of its former top guys speaks volumes. If youre looking for outright trash talking i doubt youll find it. I dont know about you, but i assume moet top levep talent want to graduate from a school and leave with a long standing posiive relationship, not one with bitterness or anomosity.

What “top guys” are you talking about?  Gilman is really the only one that sticks out to me and that’s mainly just because he was upset about Spencer Lee being the golden boy.  Which of course was a similar situation with Ramos.  They’ve had plenty of guys leave recently with no hard feelings.

[BIGTENFANBOY]

5 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

What “top guys” are you talking about?  Gilman is really the only one that sticks out to me and that’s mainly just because he was upset about Spencer Lee being the golden boy.  Which of course was a similar situation with Ramos.  They’ve had plenty of guys leave recently with no hard feelings.

You dont find it odd how Metcalf speaks about Iowa?

What about St John?

Obviously the Ramos incedent.

Gilman thing.

These guys were once the face of the Iowa team.

You may be able to explain and justify the reasoning, BUT it doesnt change the fact there is some friction.