Mizzou vs West Virginia/Cornell

[MizzouFan01]

Mizzou looked flat, slow, and not engaged. We are not in wrestling shape right now. Could be the long break between matches before the WVU match, could be lack of tournaments or matches in general, I’m not sure. Hopefully we get right over the second half of the season. Rocky if not injured needs to wrestle every remaining match we have. Outside of KOT, Surtin and Moore, we looked lethargic. 

[Hammerlock3]

10 minutes ago, BigRedFan said:

This aged well.

? why

[1032004]

7 minutes ago, BigRedFan said:

So much for that gas tank issue, huh?

(yes, I just got off my bike and reading this thread now)

I appreciated that he didn’t have to take his headgear off for no reason today 

[BigRedFan]

1 minute ago, Hammerlock3 said:

? why

You were expecting some wrestlers to avoid other wrestlers?  Isn't that what ducking is about?

[Hammerlock3]

Just now, BigRedFan said:

You were expecting some wrestlers to avoid other wrestlers?  Isn't that what ducking is about?

i didn't expect anything. It was just a mildly ironic comment about how crazed people are about ducking. 

[BigRedFan]

5 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

i didn't expect anything. It was just a mildly ironic comment about how crazed people are about ducking. 

My apologies. All in good fun.

[MidwestMan]

So Mizzou loses a dual to a tough Cornell team on the road.  Props to Cornell, they wrestled tough as hell today.  That's why Mizzou needs to continue to wrestle a tough, quality schedule that wrestling fans appreciate, while preparing them for the "big prize" at the end of the season.  When you lose, don't lose the lesson!  Time to get back in the room and start preparing for Oklahoma State.  

[1032004]

On 1/28/2024 at 3:04 PM, BigRedFan said:

So much for that gas tank issue, huh?

(yes, I just got off my bike and reading this thread now)

He did not look gassed against Mauller.  
 

He did look gassed against Brignola

[MidwestMan]

I'm too cheap to pay for stream coverage and had followed the results on the Tigerstyle Twitter feed, so just seeing scores minus action.

Watched the dual on YouTube and Cornell just seemed to be superior in how they were using their set ups on their feet.  Without getting on line and seeing where Cornell's lineup is from, gotta think it is obviously influenced highly by east coast and probably a lot of the private wrestling power high schools.  Cornell was superior on their feet and with the 3 pt takedown, that's where it is at.  Mauller's defensive wrestling got "out slicked!"  Edmond needs to finish shots and condition himself to be able to utilize his speed and power for a whole 7 minutes.  He has the potential to be a good one if he continues to grow and learn from all these close match losses.  Somewhere along the line the coaches need to be held accountable if their athletes are not progressing/adapting to improve.  Any coach can win if they are recruiting well and getting the studs.  It's what those coaches do to improve their next terre athletes that define the success of the program.  Winning takes care of itself. 

Guess I'm getting to be one of those spoiled fanatic types and need to remember what Mizzou wrestling was like before coach Smith took the reigns.  

[BigRedFan]

23 minutes ago, MidwestMan said:

I'm too cheap to pay for stream coverage and had followed the results on the Tigerstyle Twitter feed, so just seeing scores minus action.

Watched the dual on YouTube and Cornell just seemed to be superior in how they were using their set ups on their feet.  Without getting on line and seeing where Cornell's lineup is from, gotta think it is obviously influenced highly by east coast and probably a lot of the private wrestling power high schools. 

Pretty much!  Cornell/Mike Grey has a great NJ pipeline.

Ungar:  PA

Vito:  NY

Cornella:  CO

Fernandez:  NJ

Shapiro:  MD (but Wyoming Seminary in PA)

Ramirez:  FL (but Blair in NJ)

Canoyer:  NE

Foca:  Joisey! (Bergen Catholic)

Cardenas:  NJ (Bergen Catholic)

Fernandes:  NJ

[Antitroll2828]

On 1/27/2024 at 5:58 PM, wrestle87 said:

West Virginia impressed the hell out of me.  They were scrappy, wily and game, they could also scramble their heads off.  Good things are happening in that room clearly.   A bunch of those kids are sleepers for march definitely.  

I will legitimately offer the Edmond vs Titus match as the best wrestling match I have ever seen.  I believe the phrase is "two cats/raccoons trapped in a feed sack".

I'm an east coaster so please excuse my mauling of that phrase, but those dudes went after it. 

West Virginia is young and much improved and have another solid recruiting class coming in, they also were missing 2 of their best wrestlers for the Missouri dual (125 + 174) 

[MizzouFan01]

1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

West Virginia is young and much improved and have another solid recruiting class coming in, they also were missing 2 of their best wrestlers for the Missouri dual (125 + 174) 

That’s true, and even though Hawks won up at 197, can’t help but think Rocky would’ve won by more than 2-0. Still a close match. Mizzou’s class next year is not as great as the KOT, Rocky class, but it’s pretty good. 

Edited February 1 by MizzouFan01

[The_KC_Godfather]

14 hours ago, MidwestMan said:

Somewhere along the line the coaches need to be held accountable if their athletes are not progressing/adapting to improve.  Any coach can win if they are recruiting well and getting the studs.  It's what those coaches do to improve their next terre athletes that define the success of the program.  Winning takes care of itself. 

Guess I'm getting to be one of those spoiled fanatic types and need to remember what Mizzou wrestling was like before coach Smith took the reigns.  

Is this a reference to Coach Smith or Coach Grey?  Assume Smith.  One thing I'll say is that he recruits "good", but not great. For being a consistently top program, he doesn't get anywhere near the high level recruits that PSU and Iowa do (and even tOSU, OSU, and others), but always seems to develop them into top tier talent. I truly wonder where Missouri would be if they attracted the same top recruits that these other schools do, with the development that Smith and his staff are able to bring.  Hell...PSU consistently gets like 5-7 of the top 10 big board recruits.  Who can compete with that?

Where I get frustrated (and I have to catch myself) is when we have a sluggish performance like we just did against Cornell.  I/we have to remember a couple of things. 1) Smith doesn't have his wrestlers duck people (e.g. Keegan goes and will bump up for best comp...so did Askren). and 2) this is a long season and Mizzou starts early.  I didn't realize that the B1G was literally just starting their dual season after the beginning of the year, while Mizzou has been dueling for several months.  Maybe it makes sense and the B1G has the right idea to give their wrestlers less matches, and later, to keep them fresh...but that sure doesn't make me happy as a wrestling fan who wants to see dual wrestling as soon as October after waiting 7 months from the last NCAA's.

If you look at the number of top-tier HS recruits that PSU and other big name schools get, and you look at the HS recruits that Mizzou gets and what they're ranked coming in, and then compare that to their results every single year for the past 15-20 years...well....Smith is one of the best coaches in the country, hands down.  Give him the same recruits that Cael gets and Mizzou does the same thing they do, no question.

Edited February 2 by The_KC_Godfather

[BigRedFan]

8 hours ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

Is this a reference to Coach Smith or Coach Grey?  Assume Smith.  One thing I'll say is that he recruits "good", but not great. For being a consistently top program, he doesn't get anywhere near the high level recruits that PSU and Iowa do (and even tOSU, OSU, and others), but always seems to develop them into top tier talent.

Why not?  Is not part of the job of a head coach to attract top tier talent?

[MPhillips]

8 hours ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

I didn't realize that the B1G was literally just starting their dual season after the beginning of the year,

OSU wrestled ten duals before the B1G, Rutgers eight, MSU seven, Wiscy seven. That's better than or equal to Mizzou.

Coach Smith does a great job and is well respected. He's one of my favorite coaches and I'm a fan of Mizzou.

[MidwestMan]

What I am referring to with my comment about coaching is, recruits like Jacques, Jeremiah Kent, Hart, and to an extent, Brock Mauller, all had/having winning careers but how much did their style and technique improve during their Tiger career.  Did they max out their potential?  That is coaching.  Making adjustments with technique, and or strategy when taking loses and devising the practice (physical stylistic and reps) and the mental (confidence/self belief) to best utilize their talent.  I pulled my hair out watching Jacques continue to lose matches by one point because of his lack of aggressiveness and calculated style.  Probably the telltale is having wrestlers get beat by opponents they beat in the past consistently.  Someone made the adjustments and whether that was the coaching or self improvement, it did happen.

It's easier to win with the hosses.  The HS and feeder programs these kids come from matter also.  Sanderson left Iowa State for Penn State for just a 10% bump in salary and he had Iowa State in great shape at the time.  Why, because he knew that the Pennsylvania, NJ, Ohio large population areas with traditional high school wrestling powers would be one of the most fertile recruiting areas in the US.  Cale also took his coaching staff with him to Penn State.  Once you start winning the recruiting battles and racking up the wins, the machine takes care of itself.

I've watched the evolution of HS wrestling in Missouri and take pride in being part of that evolution.  We were way behind Iowa, Oklahoma, and Illinois in HS talent and coaching.  We've closed that gap and have several Missouri HS products wrestling D1.  Many of these kids come from HS and club programs coached by former D1 champs, world and Olympic wrestlers that were home grown.  Brian Smith has utilized a lot of Missouri talent to build the Mizzou program to where it is today.  We should take pride in that, but we are still missing out on top talent with Missouri ties that have chosen to seek programs they must feel will better their potential.  Lillendal, Arnold, Messenbrink all had some state of Missouri connection.  Jaden Eirmann left Mizzou because he claimed he needed a change and felt he couldn't reach his potential at Missouri.  At what point does Mizzou start being considered a "Blue Blood" in the D1 wrestling hierarchy?  Are they there now?  

I also believe that the Tiger Style brand/culture that Smith has developed over the years is not as cut throat, win first, program and puts emphasis on developing the whole athlete and this is a selling point to certain student athletes.  Smith is not going to recruit athletes that don't fit this culture, regardless of what they might bring to the program in wins.  Not going to see AJ in a Mizzou singlet. Would I eventually like to see someone like Askren leading the program when Smith finally leaves his shoes at the center of the mat?  Much like when Cale packed it up and headed to Penn St. That's a topic for another day.

 

[TylerDurden]

2 hours ago, MidwestMan said:

  Once you start winning the recruiting battles and racking up the wins, the machine takes care of itself.

 

I see versions of this take across the sporting world and it's simply not true. 

It takes a ton of work to get to the top and even more to stay there. 

[ionel]

3 hours ago, MPhillips said:

OSU wrestled ten duals before the B1G ... 

Coach Smith does a great job and is well respected. He's one of my favorite coaches and I'm a fan ...

Smith is the coach but OSU really doesn't care about when the b10 schedule starts ... MP woke up lost again ... 

[MizzouFan01]

11 hours ago, MidwestMan said:

What I am referring to with my comment about coaching is, recruits like Jacques, Jeremiah Kent, Hart, and to an extent, Brock Mauller, all had/having winning careers but how much did their style and technique improve during their Tiger career.  Did they max out their potential?  That is coaching.  Making adjustments with technique, and or strategy when taking loses and devising the practice (physical stylistic and reps) and the mental (confidence/self belief) to best utilize their talent.  I pulled my hair out watching Jacques continue to lose matches by one point because of his lack of aggressiveness and calculated style.  Probably the telltale is having wrestlers get beat by opponents they beat in the past consistently.  Someone made the adjustments and whether that was the coaching or self improvement, it did happen.

It's easier to win with the hosses.  The HS and feeder programs these kids come from matter also.  Sanderson left Iowa State for Penn State for just a 10% bump in salary and he had Iowa State in great shape at the time.  Why, because he knew that the Pennsylvania, NJ, Ohio large population areas with traditional high school wrestling powers would be one of the most fertile recruiting areas in the US.  Cale also took his coaching staff with him to Penn State.  Once you start winning the recruiting battles and racking up the wins, the machine takes care of itself.

I've watched the evolution of HS wrestling in Missouri and take pride in being part of that evolution.  We were way behind Iowa, Oklahoma, and Illinois in HS talent and coaching.  We've closed that gap and have several Missouri HS products wrestling D1.  Many of these kids come from HS and club programs coached by former D1 champs, world and Olympic wrestlers that were home grown.  Brian Smith has utilized a lot of Missouri talent to build the Mizzou program to where it is today.  We should take pride in that, but we are still missing out on top talent with Missouri ties that have chosen to seek programs they must feel will better their potential.  Lillendal, Arnold, Messenbrink all had some state of Missouri connection.  Jaden Eirmann left Mizzou because he claimed he needed a change and felt he couldn't reach his potential at Missouri.  At what point does Mizzou start being considered a "Blue Blood" in the D1 wrestling hierarchy?  Are they there now?  

I also believe that the Tiger Style brand/culture that Smith has developed over the years is not as cut throat, win first, program and puts emphasis on developing the whole athlete and this is a selling point to certain student athletes.  Smith is not going to recruit athletes that don't fit this culture, regardless of what they might bring to the program in wins.  Not going to see AJ in a Mizzou singlet. Would I eventually like to see someone like Askren leading the program when Smith finally leaves his shoes at the center of the mat?  Much like when Cale packed it up and headed to Penn St. That's a topic for another day.

 

I’ve been thinking about this post almost all day. Smith like you said has done a great job with the recruits he’s gotten, a lot being home grown MO kids. Did he miss a couple, sure. But in all honesty, outside of Zach Bailey, Cody Brewer and one of the Lester twins, who all AA and won a Championship at Oklahoma, who else went away and AA for another D1 school? I don’t count Luis Caputo, I’d choose Stanford over Mizzou also. Clemson was at Edinburgh before Smith I believe. Point is without looking over past lineups, Smith got the right recruits to come. Couple of the Oak Park guys came back after trying other places, Connor Flynn came back home. Josh Saunders, big recruit, choose and ivy education along with Jack Darrah. So far no AA for either of those guys, and Saunders can’t make their lineup. Eierman left, as he stated in his interview that he felt at Mizzou he had a better chance to improving his freestyle aspirations. How has that worked out? As far as folk, he was going to take 1/2 the last two years anyway no matter if it was Mizzou or Iowa. Him and Nick Lee where the top dogs his last two years competing so that’s a mute point. Meanwhile Mizzou has two world jr Champs in KOT and Rocky, with a third team member in Hawks. Iowa nowhere to be found in the freestyle team outside of Desanto and Lee. Smith has gotten most of the Mo top guys, sometimes it just don’t work out. Malik Johnson, Cevion Severado, and a couple others come to mind. Who would’ve thought Vinny Zerban is the only CBC kid from those fab 4 teams to be making noise on the D1 level. Maple is doing well in the PA area for recruits lately. We got Kollin Rath, and if CoMo was closer to PA, we would’ve gotten Collin Gaj. Smith and Company do great with who they get. We might not be Penn State, but we are a top 10 program every year. 

[Antitroll2828]

On 2/1/2024 at 9:27 AM, BigRedFan said:

Pretty much!  Cornell/Mike Grey has a great NJ pipeline.

Ungar:  PA

Vito:  NY

Cornella:  CO

Fernandez:  NJ

Shapiro:  MD (but Wyoming Seminary in PA)

Ramirez:  FL (but Blair in NJ)

Canoyer:  NE

Foca:  Joisey! (Bergen Catholic)

Cardenas:  NJ (Bergen Catholic)

Fernandes:  NJ

Ungar is NJ he was state champ as a sophomore then started going to school in PA but always lived in NJ 

[Show_Me]

On 2/2/2024 at 7:02 PM, MizzouFan01 said:

Smith like you said has done a great job with the recruits he’s gotten, a lot being home grown MO kids. Did he miss a couple, sure. But in all honesty, outside of Zach Bailey, Cody Brewer and one of the Lester twins, who all AA and won a Championship at Oklahoma, who else went away and AA for another D1 school? I don’t count Luis Caputo, I’d choose Stanford over Mizzou also.  Clemson was at Edinburgh before Smith I believe.

Good post and agree with your points ! 

However, Caputo was Harvard & Clemsen was in HS here during Smith's tenure. 

A far as Missouri kids leaving to AA elsewhere, I believe this is the full list.  Not saying that all these wrestlers were interested in Mizzou or would have been good fits for the Program.

B. Lowe – Oak Grove / Minnesota
L. Caputo – Blue Springs / Harvard
A. Clemsen – Moberly / Edinboro
Z. Bailey – Oak Park / Oklahoma
R. Mango – Whitfield / Stanford
N. Lester – Eureka / Oklahoma
C. Brewer – Oak Park / Oklahoma
B. Stauffer - Neosho / Arizona St.
C. Lance – Nixa / Nebraska