The Iowa Grinders, not a good look at all

[ionel]

Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

Where was he on the Big Board? And how old is Willie, anyway?

Willie had him #1 on the crayon board.  

[Gus]

7 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

The Iowa Style was fatiguing and scoring on guys with a high offensive pace.  Guys didn't just get fatigued because they were pushed to the edge of the mat while the crown yelled "Stalling".

No one, including Iowa, really wrestles like that any more. Better defense and scrambling have made points more of a premium so guys are more reluctant to be overly aggressive. 

I don't think its a failure of a certain style but more the evolution of the sport.

The classic Iowa style that guys like TnT, McIlravy, Ironside, etc wrestled is more akin to the style that DeSanto wrestled than anyone on Iowa's current roster. Penn State has a couple of wrestlers that are reminiscent of the classic Iowa style in SVN and Haines. Keckeisen also comes to mind.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Maybe Brand finally realized that you don't have to come out guns blazing in December when you can get your reps in, focus on technique, and turn it up a notch or three in the postseason.

[Ohio Elite]

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Where was he on the Big Board? And how old is Willie, anyway?

Based on a pic I saw of him from 1996 flo posted years ago. I'd say he's 44. Just a guess

[1032004]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

So what you meant to say was one Penn State injury plus 30% of Iowa being replaced, which is different than Iowa. 

OK, let's say we replace 30% of Iowa. Right now Iowa is looking at a 58 point deficit to Penn State if you assume Penn State scores zero at 149 (maybe, maybe not). 

What is realistic for Anthony Ferrari? Probably low AA at the highest. Call it 6th to 8th. Why? He was 23rd on the 2022 Big Board. Between 2013 and 2021 there were 45 guys between 21 and 25 on the Big Board, and in their 165 cumulative seasons they have 22 AA's. So call it a 13% to AA (and that is generous given that most of the 22 AAs happened after their first season). So, roughly 7 or 8 points max. The deficit is now 50.

What is realistic for AJ? On the plus side, he has a title under his belt. On the minus side, he has not wrestled in years, he is not enrolled, and he is reported to be much heavier than 197. So call him 0 to 20 points. Who knows? Now the deficit is 30 with some very rosy assumptions.

What is realistic for Kueter? Kueter comes in as a top 10 BB (#6), and these guys tend to have monster careers. Among these 90 athletes there are 9 who won it as freshmen. Of course, none of them skipped first semester in the room, but whatever. Let's say he has a 10% chance to win it all, he also has a 30% chance of never AAing (as has happened with 18 of the 60 who have finished their career). Is third a realistic ceiling? Not likely, but sure. That cuts the deficit to 17.

With a Brooks or Starocci injury now we are even.

All it took was to assume three wrestlers who are not currently part of the team (two not even enrolled in school), one of whom is actually practicing a different sport, to maximize their potential ALL AT THE SAME TIME (which is? an Iowa trait at NCAA's), and an injury to one of two specific wrestlers.

Well, you have me convinced.

To be fair the 2 Ferraris + Kueter are looking pretty likely at this point.  One of Kueter’s football coaches basically said he’s expecting to start at heavyweight.

But I’d agree AJ is likely the only one bringing a significant # of points.  I’m not too concerned with him making 197 though, but not sure where he stacks up in the current 197 field.

Still, those moves + a Brooks or Starocci injury (and definitely not wishing injury on anyone) does make it a conversation I’d think.

Are you factoring any points for Iowa at 174?  And even if the Ferraris and Kueter don’t meet the point totals you listed, there are other potential albeit maybe not likely scenarios such as Franek or Ayala winning it all.

[MPhillips]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

Willie had him #1 on the crayon board.  

Willie's parents were just out of crayons... 

[Wrestleknownothing]

28 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

To be fair the 2 Ferraris + Kueter are looking pretty likely at this point.  One of Kueter’s football coaches basically said he’s expecting to start at heavyweight.

But I’d agree AJ is likely the only one bringing a significant # of points.  I’m not too concerned with him making 197 though, but not sure where he stacks up in the current 197 field.

Still, those moves + a Brooks or Starocci injury (and definitely not wishing injury on anyone) does make it a conversation I’d think.

Are you factoring any points for Iowa at 174?  And even if the Ferraris and Kueter don’t meet the point totals you listed, there are other potential albeit maybe not likely scenarios such as Franek or Ayala winning it all.

2.2 points at 174 with Kennedy ranked 14.

And I would say 1 Ferrari and Kueter are looking pretty likely. I am fading AJ until I actually see he is enrolled.

[flyingcement]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

Fly has already guaranteed the double, no need to fear the underdog!

I think it pretty much is guaranteed haha.  Sounds like a good bet 

[Le duke]

no he's really good. took me awhile to notice because of the BS posturing and drama. If it was purely about skill PSU would be all over angelo.

Top-10 165lb NCAA wrestlers are really good, too. Many of whom are 4-5 years older than him.


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[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, Le duke said:

Top-10 165lb NCAA wrestlers are really good, too. Many of whom are 4-5 years older than him.


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WOW!!!! mind blown

[Gus]

2 hours ago, Le duke said:

Top-10 165lb NCAA wrestlers are really good, too. Many of whom are 4-5 years older than him.


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Joe Sealy was giving grown men a run for their money at Bill Ferrel. 

[Mr. PeanutButter]

It's easy to look good against less heralded competition. Still, I was happy to see more offensive output from the hawks tonight.

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

7 hours ago, Dogbone said:

The Iowa Style was fatiguing and scoring on guys with a high offensive pace.  Guys didn't just get fatigued because they were pushed to the edge of the mat while the crown yelled "Stalling".

No one, including Iowa, really wrestles like that any more. Better defense and scrambling have made points more of a premium so guys are more reluctant to be overly aggressive. 

I don't think its a failure of a certain style but more the evolution of the sport.

I think you see individuals who’s style is like that, but overall it’s not going to suit 30 guys to all wrestle like that. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:21 PM, Hammerlock3 said:

no he's really good. took me awhile to notice because of the BS posturing and drama. If it was purely about skill PSU would be all over angelo.

A year and a half ago, the PSU fanboys were talking about how Sealey would contend for high all-American finished after his sophomore year.  In fact, they were talking about how James Green said he would be competitive at the senior level at 16. (Remember this LeDuke?)

Things have certainly cooled off after two Ferrari losses and some weird, weird transfers.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:03 PM, Le duke said:

Top-10 165lb NCAA wrestlers are really good, too. Many of whom are 4-5 years older than him.


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You've changed your tune after two Ferrari losses!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Certain people on this board ate this James Green quote up: " “I feel like Joe Sealey could make the national team at the senior level. The kid has lot of talent. He has heavy hands. He’s got an extreme, hard pace. It’s not the same in a two-minute span so that might get him a little bit trying to wear someone down within four minutes. If he gets his hands on you he’s going to make you feel him and he’s going to make you regret it. He’s got a great style and a great feel. I think he’ll be making a lot of people tired. They’ll need some help up off the mat.”

Now the same people are saying "the top 10 at 165 would eat Ferrari's lunch."  Make up your mind.  Stand up!

Edited December 10, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Le duke]

You've changed your tune after two Ferrari losses!

Have I? Sealey could wrestle 157. Ferrari would be at 165, which has been a deeper weight for a long, long time.


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[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

32 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Have I? Sealey could wrestle 157. Ferrari would be at 165, which has been a deeper weight for a long, long time.


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Yes.  You were talking "national team in high school" before the first Ferrari loss.  Just like "Messenbrink only beat Haines... because freestyle."  Now you have MM as a contender.

Sealey may well end up better than Ferrari in college, but he's lost some of that shine.

[Le duke]

Yes.  You were talking "national team in high school" before the first Ferrari loss.  Just like "Messenbrink only beat Haines... because freestyle."  Now you have MM as a contender.
Sealey may well end up better than Ferrari in college, but he's lost some of that shine.

Where have I said MM is a contender?
I think his ceiling is 3rd this year. I’ve been pretty clear about that. 165 is insanely deep yet again. I think Mesenbrink will win multiple titles, yes, but not this year.

And, guess what: Haines likely beat MM for the 157lb spot. They both certified below 165lbs, and Haines is the 157lb starter. Cael doesn’t play favorites.

Please quote me on the “national team in high school” thing.


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[1032004]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:21 PM, Hammerlock3 said:

no he's really good. took me awhile to notice because of the BS posturing and drama. If it was purely about skill PSU would be all over angelo.

I believe PSU was recruiting Angelo weren’t they?  Albeit maybe not “all over” him

[Le duke]

I believe PSU was recruiting Angelo weren’t they?  Albeit maybe not “all over” him

Not from what I’ve heard.


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[1032004]

8 hours ago, Le duke said:

Not from what I’ve heard.


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Ok I’m probably misremembering.  I might’ve been thinking of the PSU hat thing but I guess they were never even in his top 5 so they likely weren’t recruiting him

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I believe PSU was recruiting Angelo weren’t they?  Albeit maybe not “all over” him

They did recruit AJ.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 hours ago, Le duke said:

 

Where have I said MM is a contender?
I think his ceiling is 3rd this year. I’ve been pretty clear about that. 165 is insanely deep yet again. I think Mesenbrink will win multiple titles, yes, but not this year.

And, guess what: Haines likely beat MM for the 157lb spot. They both certified below 165lbs, and Haines is the 157lb starter. Cael doesn’t play favorites.

Please quote me on the “national team in high school” thing.


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Might be tough to produce since it likely disappeared with the old forum.  You knew where you stood.

No one ever said anything about Cael playing favorites, but maybe PSU is stronger with Messenbrink at 165.  Maybe they want him to grow?  Who knows?

Edited December 10, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[wrestle87]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:06 PM, Hammerlock3 said:

I feel like the iowa style was born of an era when  not everyone was in shape. nowadays it seems like you break people with scoring not fatigue.

Very true. And Iowa was likely getting a higher average tier of recruit.  No Penn State to compete with.

Coaching trees have grown, and wrestling has largely moved on and disproven the Iowa grind style in favor of “hey let’s actually respect our bodies and our minds and see what that does” approach.  

Twin mini-gables and Mr J Smith are so dyed-in-the-wool blood sweat and tears coaches they squeeze their athletes too hard, or just don’t know another way.

There’s an interview with either John or one of the brands about a time when one of the brands walked up to John and asked when they can expect to finally stop getting fired up and not want to go fight the world while their wrestlers are competing.  The answer from John was “it never stops.”

Then…a more mature well-rounded adult  devised a far more comprehensive coaching persona, style, and culture, and left those programs in the dust.

Two of these rooms coach based in anger and discipline, one coaches based on gratitude, perspective, and creativity.

The sport has moved on in a big way and its a great thing.