Neutral, Top, Bottom..who’s most complete?

[Pish]

4 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Rating Lee an A+ and Brooks an A for top wrestling is...well, it's something.  Brooks is a B on top.  The only current PSU guy who is a stud on top (not counting the new guys who we don't have enough data on) is Max Dean.  The other guys ride to ride (and this is a problem in all of collegiate wrestling, not limited to the PSU guys).  The PSU guys will hook that ankle and sit on it, accruing riding time but not making any effort to turn.  The Iowa guys who stall on top (Murin, Warner, Nelson Brands)  primarily throw in a spiral ride and return the guy (or push them out) over and over again.

The only Iowa guys I would qualify as studs on top are Lee (obviously) and Cassioppi.

I don’t think there’s a stat for it anywhere (I could be wrong). But I would guess AB gets riding time Point in 95% of his matches.  That’s an A anyway you slice it. It’s not like he not getting back points in most of his matches (he is). 
 

Hes not an A+ because he not pinning enough, but if you can get riding time in 95% of your matches and getting many turns..it’s an A

 

[Pish]

After reading many of the responses, maybe I was a little harsh with some of the C grades on bottom. Maybe make them B’s?  

[AnklePicker]

There should certainly be a category for defense as well. When you add that to the list, O’toole is the best wrestler in the country. 

[Pish]

Just now, AnklePicker said:

There should certainly be a category for defense as well. When you add that to the list, O’toole is the best wrestler in the country. 

Agree defense is important..but then it’s way to subjective IMO. Some guys can’t get taken down because they don’t engage or play the edge..don’t want to reward that. Yeah it’s good defense but it’s boring wrestling. Then there’s guys that are so offensive they give up legs just to get into scrambles. Too much too analyze. 

Trying to keep it simple. 
 

I won’t argue with your O’Toole pick as best all around..I’d take AB but I can see at case being made for a few others and Otoole is definetly one of them. I want to see him vs Carr. That’s the test for him

[Pish]

2 hours ago, Gus said:

Spencer and O’Toole are the only A+ guys on top. 

I dare you to start on bottom against Dean. 
 

I’m wincing from my couch every time I see him put the bow and arrow on someone. People make fun of Warner screaming last year..I’d be doing the same damned thing!

Edited November 24, 2022 by Pish

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Pish said:

I don’t think there’s a stat for it anywhere (I could be wrong). But I would guess AB gets riding time Point in 95% of his matches.  That’s an A anyway you slice it. It’s not like he not getting back points in most of his matches (he is). 
 

Hes not an A+ because he not pinning enough, but if you can get riding time in 95% of your matches and getting many turns..it’s an A

 

You’re giving an A to anyone who gets a riding time point and your criteria is “elite wrestlers only?”

I would be concerned of anyone who does *not* get an A based on your grading rubric. Anyone who is a top 3 or better SHOULD be getting all As like a smart kid in a crappy public high school based on your rule set.

[Gus]

1 hour ago, Pish said:

I dare you to start on bottom against Dean. 
 

I’m wincing from my couch every time I see him put the bow and arrow on someone. People make fun of Warner screaming last year..I’d be doing the same damned thing!

Dean is a very solid wrestler on top but he’s a step below guys like O’Toole and Spencer. I would give him an A. If the criteria is making me wince for an A+, there would be a list list of guys with A+’s. 

[Bow n Arrow]

2 hours ago, Pish said:

I dare you to start on bottom against Dean. 
 

I’m wincing from my couch every time I see him put the bow and arrow on someone. People make fun of Warner screaming last year..I’d be doing the same damned thing!

I agree

[dragit]

If the grades are based on yesterday then O'Toole is valedictorian.

He put on a folkstyle clinic in every position.  Old school crisp wrestling for most of the match and then a slick new era takedown to cap it off.

As a Shane Griffith fan I found it thoroughly depressing. 

[1032004]

11 hours ago, Pish said:

It’s not like he not getting back points in most of his matches (he is). 

Are we sure he is?  And IIRC a decent chunk of his back points are feet to back.  I’d give him a B+ on top.

[BerniePragle]

19 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Yes but those are like the only 2 times he's been bad on bottom in his entire college career.  Would you give Isiah Martinez a C on bottom because he got pinned by Joseph?

Joseph pinned Martinez from neutral takedown straight to back.  Imar was not down.

[BerniePragle]

18 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

How would you rank Desanto?

 

Out of college.

[Pish]

Happy Thanksgiving all!!

There would be only 2 wrestlers in past 10 yrs I’d give A+ grades across all 3 positions. David Taylor and Jason Nolf. Bo and Zain would be close but I would only give them A in neutral. And wouldn’t give them A+ in bottom. 
 

if I could edit my original post, I’d give O’Toole an A+ on bottom. 
 

A+ on bottom means you’re not getting ridden and will actually create offense from bottom if not careful
 

Any others in the past 10 or so years (where we have plenty of film in them) in your opinions?

Edited November 24, 2022 by Pish

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, BerniePragle said:

Out of college.

Placed 3rd at BF last weekend... so probably a B+

[MichaelScott]

18 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

A few months ago I beat Aaron Brooks. How can someone who can't even go undefeated be the best?

-Myles Amine

Wait…what?!?

-Dan Gable

Edited November 24, 2022 by MichaelScott

[MPhillips]

44 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

Wait…what?!?

-Dan Gable

Parkour!

[BerniePragle]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Placed 3rd at BF last weekend... so probably a B+

Original post said folkstyle only.  All wrestlers listed are in college.  I felt it necessary to correct Cinnaguy.

[Idaho]

3 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

Original post said folkstyle only.  All wrestlers listed are in college.  I felt it necessary to correct Cinnaguy.

Yes...I was playing off that with my grade in a different style. 

[nhs67]

There are other factors in wrestling than top, neutral, and bottom.

You can have a guy who's skill or technique at neutral is better than everyone at the weight, but he lacks the horse so against particularly powerful guys may seem outmatched because of it.

One example in this is Finesilver of Michigan and Romero if the Ohio State.  Finesilver has more skill at neutral.  You wouldn't believe that watching them go at it.  They both faced Gavin Kane of North Carolina on the same weekend. 

Now Kane isn't as strong as Romero.  As far as strength is concerned Romero may be the strongest at the weight - I would consider Brooks and Hidlay to be more powerful, though.

This said, Kane had enough strength to make it so it came down to other aspects of the neutral game to play into determining who was better.

Unless Finesilver can come up with some sort of perfectly modified gameplan, I think Romero tears him apart every time because of the gap in strength being insurmountable.  Finesilver may beat Kane worse than Romero might, though.

So in considering these things, as well as the other aspects of both offense and defense for each position and it becomes a complicated measure to measure top, neutral, and bottom. 

Also, factoring that unless their opponent chooses top in a match, it is conceivable that certain gents might never have their bottom game tested, ever.

None of these factor in conditioning or the 'X' factor of real life stresses.

I would say you have seven basic groups of measurement.  Speed, Strength, Conditioning, Top, Neutral, and bottom - also the 'X' factor.  Top, neutral, and bottom can each be broken doen into three subsidiary groups as well into offense, defense, and skill (technique).

One example where someone might have a rating of 'A+' at neutral offense but a rating of 'C' at neutral defense is Mendez.  Byrd and Latona both showed that there were layers of neutral with him.  Latona was able to exploit his lack of neutral defense, where Byrd was slower on the trigger, so he could not.

Now we get to the rub of it, and it is why styles make matches.

RBY has elite enough neutral defense and speed to exploit the entire 133lb field, including the distinct #2 Fix.  He has at least enough of every other aspect of his game that his speed makes it look like a mismatch, even if the score doesn't indicate it.  He doesn't have the aggression Brooks has, so his dominations aren't as apparent if you look at the box score.

Edit: 'X' factor can also be other things as well, such as Spencer Lee's insane grip.

Edited November 24, 2022 by nhs67

[Schuteandscore]

4 hours ago, Pish said:

Happy Thanksgiving all!!

There would be only 2 wrestlers in past 10 yrs I’d give A+ grades across all 3 positions. David Taylor and Jason Nolf. Bo and Zain would be close but I would only give them A in neutral. And wouldn’t give them A+ in bottom. 
 

if I could edit my original post, I’d give O’Toole an A+ on bottom. 
 

A+ on bottom means you’re not getting ridden and will actually create offense from bottom if not careful
 

Any others in the past 10 or so years (where we have plenty of film in them) in your opinions?

Wait…Zain only am A in neutral??

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Pish said:

Happy Thanksgiving all!!

There would be only 2 wrestlers in past 10 yrs I’d give A+ grades across all 3 positions. David Taylor and Jason Nolf. Bo and Zain would be close but I would only give them A in neutral. And wouldn’t give them A+ in bottom. 
 

if I could edit my original post, I’d give O’Toole an A+ on bottom. 
 

A+ on bottom means you’re not getting ridden and will actually create offense from bottom if not careful
 

Any others in the past 10 or so years (where we have plenty of film in them) in your opinions?

DT was ridden by Dake multiple times.  Nolf ridden by IMAar.  Granted those are pretty much the only 2 guys to do it...but they were ridden nonetheless.