Neutral, Top, Bottom..who’s most complete?

[Pish]

In another thread we were talking about some guys and thought it’d be interesting some others thoughts. 
 

We are strictly talking folkstyle, so please don’t let freestyle enter these ratings. 
 

Gonna give grades on Neutral, Top and Bottom with some of the tops guys.  A+ should only be given if elite at something. 
 

Brooks A (neutral), A (top), A (bottom)

Otoole A- (neutral) A+ (top), A (bottom)

Lee A (neutral) A+ (top) C (bottom)

Starocci B (neutral) A top A bottom

RBY A+ (neutral) C (top) (C bottom)

Yianni A-(neutral) C- (top) A (bottom)

Dean C (neutral) A+ (top) A (bottom)

Kerk A (neutral) A (top) C (bottom)

Parris A- (neutral) A (top) C (bottom)

 

interested in others thoughts and grades and different wrestlers. 
 

only thing not accounted for here is defense. For example. Take Yianni, I think what makes him great is his defense (turning others shots/mistakes into his score). 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Fix A- (neutral) A+ (top) A- (bottom)

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Lee is not a C on bottom.  At worst he is a A-

[Mr. PeanutButter]

Idk how you can give all these folks a grade of A for top wrestling when hardly any of them score any points from that position. 

 

[Pish]

3 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Idk how you can give all these folks a grade of A for top wrestling when hardly any of them score any points from that position. 

 

A is because all these guys consistently get riding time on their opponents and turn and get back points against average to above average opponents. 
 

the A+ in this category are the elite ones  that will get back points or pins against anyone

[Pish]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Lee is not a C on bottom.  At worst he is a A-

Lee has been pinnned against Piccinnini and has a tough time getting out from tough riders (Glory)

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Pish said:

Lee has been pinnned against Piccinnini and has a tough time getting out from tough riders (Glory)

Yes but those are like the only 2 times he's been bad on bottom in his entire college career.  Would you give Isiah Martinez a C on bottom because he got pinned by Joseph?

Edited November 23, 2022 by Jimmy Cinnabon

[Pish]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Yes but those are like the only 2 times he's been bad on bottom in his entire college career.  Would you give Nickal a C because he got pinned by Martin?

No anyone can get pinned. But Nickal never had problem getting off bottom

 

i guess my point is..if Lee has a weakness, it would be on bottom against tough riders. 
 

The guys on this list are all awesome wrestlers. I’m being extra picky since they’re rarely exposed to their weakness

Edited November 23, 2022 by Pish

[Mr. PeanutButter]

25 minutes ago, Pish said:

A is because all these guys consistently get riding time on their opponents and turn and get back points against average to above average opponents. 
 

the A+ in this category are the elite ones  that will get back points or pins against anyone

Ok I can ride with that.

 

What does a grade C mean then? In my mind, a grade of C for bottom (as an example) means that the wrestler struggles with getting away even against middle of the road competitors. I think I would switch RBY, Lee and Mason bottom wrestling to B with that in mind

[Pish]

1 minute ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Ok I can ride with that.

 

What does a grade C mean then? In my mind, a grade of C for bottom (as an example) means that the wrestler struggles with getting away even against middle of the road competitors. I think I would switch RBY, Lee and Mason bottom wrestling to B with that in mind

My C was given for these guys assuming they going against tough riders. I’m being extra picky here because they all very good. Just trying to show what I perceive as their weekness. 
 

if you move them to a B I’m not going to argue..

[Idaho]

49 minutes ago, Pish said:

Lee has been pinnned against Piccinnini and has a tough time getting out from tough riders (Glory)

Those matches were 4 years ago.... I'm guessing now that Spencer has knees he might be a little better. 

 

24 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

What does a grade C mean then? In my mind, a grade of C for bottom (as an example) means that the wrestler struggles with getting away even against middle of the road competitors. I think I would switch RBY, Lee and Mason bottom wrestling to B with that in mind

I was probably a C- but I was a master at hiding it. 

[bnwtwg]

If you're comparing P4P then not everyone can be an A. I would think a ranking system would look better for what you are asking.

Also, if Lee is a C on bottom then your criteria should put Kerk at an F- on top and bottom. Doesn't matter if he got the takedown or was taken down, he is always fully extended and stares at the ref with a befuddled look wondering why they are still in par terre instead of going back to feet. It's always a funny awkward face that makes me giggle when the lightbulb goes off that he's not in a freestyle match.

[Pish]

4 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

If you're comparing P4P then not everyone can be an A. I would think a ranking system would look better for what you are asking.

Also, if Lee is a C on bottom then your criteria should put Kerk at an F- on top and bottom. Doesn't matter if he got the takedown or was taken down, he is always fully extended and stares at the ref with a befuddled look wondering why they are still in par terre instead of going back to feet. It's always a funny awkward face that makes me giggle when the lightbulb goes off that he's not in a freestyle match.

I’m not comparing them to each other. I’m giving them a grade based on the three positions. 
 

As far as Kerk being an F-?  Cmon. I get it. You hate PSU. But at least try to control yourself. 

[PortaJohn]

15 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

If you're comparing P4P then not everyone can be an A. I would think a ranking system would look better for what you are asking.

Also, if Lee is a C on bottom then your criteria should put Kerk at an F- on top and bottom. Doesn't matter if he got the takedown or was taken down, he is always fully extended and stares at the ref with a befuddled look wondering why they are still in par terre instead of going back to feet. It's always a funny awkward face that makes me giggle when the lightbulb goes off that he's not in a freestyle match.

Aaron Brooks is the best Folkstyle wrestler this season

-Myles Amine

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

How would you rank Desanto?

Neutral: A- (against most guys he's a TD machine, struggles to get TDs vs top competition read: RBY)

Top: B (not really a turner)

Bottom: B+ (has been ridden by the top guys)

[ExBSUfan]

1 hour ago, Pish said:

Lee has been pinnned against Piccinnini and has a tough time getting out from tough riders (Glory)

Didn’t Lee get cradled from neutral and get pinned? That had nothing to do with Lee getting rode from top.

[Pinnacle]

1 hour ago, Pish said:

In another thread we were talking about some guys and thought it’d be interesting some others thoughts. 
 

We are strictly talking folkstyle, so please don’t let freestyle enter these ratings. 
 

Gonna give grades on Neutral, Top and Bottom with some of the tops guys.  A+ should only be given if elite at something. 
 

Brooks A (neutral), A (top), A (bottom)

Otoole A- (neutral) A+ (top), A (bottom)

Lee A (neutral) A+ (top) C (bottom)

Starocci B (neutral) A top A bottom

RBY A+ (neutral) C (top) (C bottom)

Yianni A-(neutral) C- (top) A (bottom)

Dean C (neutral) A+ (top) A (bottom)

Kerk A (neutral) A (top) C (bottom)

Parris A- (neutral) A (top) C (bottom)

 

interested in others thoughts and grades and different wrestlers. 
 

only thing not accounted for here is defense. For example. Take Yianni, I think what makes him great is his defense (turning others shots/mistakes into his score). 

 

Of the guys mentioned here all but two of them wrestle in the Big10, so they compete against the more difficult schedule. Of the remaining guys O'Toole wrestles better comp in the regular season than Yianni (sorry Ivys). To try and level the playing field I looked at just NCAAs. Yianni has wrestled 15 NCAA matches. He scored 2 majors in his first two tournament matches against an unseeded wrestler from Pitt and then against the 14 seed. After that 13 straight DEC wins. His defense is high class, but he is not nearly as offense minded as those other guys on your list and he gives up the leg too easily for me to rate him on the same level in neutral as some of those other guys. 

[WildTurk]

Spencer Lee has never got a C in anything.  C on bottom?  

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, PortaJohn said:

Aaron Brooks is the best Folkstyle wrestler this season

-Myles Amine

A few months ago I beat Aaron Brooks. How can someone who can't even go undefeated be the best?

-Myles Amine

[Crotalus]

Didn’t Lee get cradled from neutral and get pinned? That had nothing to do with Lee getting rode from top.

Yes. Was going to comment the same thing. I guess the takedown was awarded when the cradle was locked up, but that's a technicality and shouldn't be a knock on his ability from bottom. It is his weakest position, but probably an A-. That said, if he gets an A+ from top for his ability to consistently turn everyone, and guys who only ride for the extra point get an A, then the grading scale needs adjustment.

[PortaJohn]

7 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

A few months ago I beat Aaron Brooks. How can someone who can't even go undefeated be the best?

-Myles Amine

That was a weak comeback.  You can do better than that

[VakAttack]

Rating Lee an A+ and Brooks an A for top wrestling is...well, it's something.  Brooks is a B on top.  The only current PSU guy who is a stud on top (not counting the new guys who we don't have enough data on) is Max Dean.  The other guys ride to ride (and this is a problem in all of collegiate wrestling, not limited to the PSU guys).  The PSU guys will hook that ankle and sit on it, accruing riding time but not making any effort to turn.  The Iowa guys who stall on top (Murin, Warner, Nelson Brands)  primarily throw in a spiral ride and return the guy (or push them out) over and over again.

The only Iowa guys I would qualify as studs on top are Lee (obviously) and Cassioppi.

Edited November 23, 2022 by VakAttack

[Gus]

Spencer and O’Toole are the only A+ guys on top. 

[Framer614]

After seeing RBY ride Fix (in both finals), I would think an A is in order.

[flyingcement]

47 minutes ago, Gus said:

Spencer and O’Toole are the only A+ guys on top. 

plus Lizak