Israel Attacked

[GreatWhiteNorth]

14 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

True or false? The IDF has lied about its responsibility for events in the past. 

Not a T/F question. The IDF is responsibility for keeping the country safe and that is not as simple as always good or bad. The same is true for all militaries around the world. None are perfect, none are angels, none don't sometimes bend the truth. In times of war, it becomes even messier and more chaotic.

War is ugly. War is awful. War is not a bastion of truth and responsibility. All wars consist mostly of pain and cruelty. Which is why we work so hard to avoid them.

Before 10/7, there was no war. There is now. Hamas should not have brought this war upon themselves and the Palestinian people. Hamas didn't work hard to avoid it - they invited it.

Nobody ever really wins in any war. There should be no special recognition for those that invite war. Other than guilt.

 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

11 hours ago, mspart said:

So let me get this straight.   If you kill civilians, that is a war crime?   Which war has been fought in the last 100 years that has not resulted in civilian deaths?   Civilian death and property destruction is the main consequence of modern war.  

Israel is not targeting civilians.   There is no other armed force that I know of that tries to avoid civilian deaths like the IDF.   Perhaps US troops do similar.  Certainly not Russian troops.   So when Israel attacks, they have warned everyone what they are going to do.   If civilians are present, they either were prevented from leaving or they are not really civilians.  

I see this as Israel having done their due diligence to prevent civilian deaths.  Please show where Hamas has ever taken this tactic with regard to Israeli civilians.   This is just one way to differentiate the tactics used and the intent of the two sides here.  

In my opinion, Hamas did not go to all out war, they went as far as to initiate an initial skirmish with civilians, not against armed forces.   That is a war crime.    Mowing down 270 youth at a music/dance get together is a crime, not just a war crime.  Burning alive civilians in their houses is a crime, not just a war crime.  

What did they think would be the response from Israel?   Did they think that Israel would roll over?   I don't think so.   I think they knew the response would be punishing and swift.   I think the calculus was that other entities would come to help the fight.   Hezbollah is certainly answering that call in a small way.   But they were roundly condemned for their brutal and inhuman actions.   And now Israel is prepared to take out Hamas as an entity.   Is there a reason not to?   Hamas' attacks have been constant over the years from Gaza.   They had a sort of truce going on and apparently we and Israel relaxed about any violence.   Then came 10/7.  Israel is understandably incensed and their intent to eliminate Hamas now is also understandable. 

If Israel wanted to destroy civilians in Gaza, why have they historically provided, food, energy and fuel to Gaza?  

If Gazans and Hamas disarmed, what would be the result?   Peace. 

If Israel disarmed, what would be the result?  Annihilation.   

This again shows the disparate intent of the two. 

mspart

If anybody hasn't read Art's post above - you should.

Really a good post. Well-reasoned, well explained, and levelheaded.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

11 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Yeah, Israel keeps "accidentally" killing 20x the amount of civilians Hamas does.

That's where your logic fails you.

The concept of proportional response applies to ongoing conflicts. Gaza shoots some rockets into Israel, then Israel responds by shooting some rockets into Gaza. Mostly military targets. The level of casualties is roughly the same and similar scenarios repeat for decades. Not really fair, by any means, but roughly proportional. That was the ongoing conflict that existed prior to 10/7.

What happened on 10/7 was very much different. There was nothing proportional about that day. The targets weren't military. Hundreds of civilians were massacred. Young people, families, the elderly. That was pure evil and shattered any respect for the concept of proportional response.

On 10/7 Hamas invited war. Israel declared war. And that changed everything. Proportionality doesn't apply to war. 

The Palestinians aren't Israel's enemy. Hamas is. It is cowardly that Hamas is hiding among the Palestinian civilians to try to save themselves from the atrocities they committed and the war they started.

Hamas is purposely putting Palestinian civilians at risk. For this - if anyone should be called out - it is the cowardly Hamas.

[uncle bernard]

 

 

[uncle bernard]

perfect summation of how self-defeating this slaughter is.

 

[PortaJohn]

21 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

perfect summation of how self-defeating this slaughter is.

 

There are caveats to this theory.  First is the average median age of males in the general population.  For Palestine I believe it is around 18 years of age.  Much lower than the global population.  This does imply that your theory could be correct.  It also highlights one of the biggest issues counter terrorism deals with in that these jihadist groups target pre teens to indoctrinate.  At the same time, no one has given a solid counter argument on how to deal with Hamas.  It's not so black and white

Edited October 28, 2023 by PortaJohn

[uncle bernard]

10 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Not a T/F question. The IDF is responsibility for keeping the country safe and that is not as simple as always good or bad. The same is true for all militaries around the world. None are perfect, none are angels, none don't sometimes bend the truth. In times of war, it becomes even messier and more chaotic.

War is ugly. War is awful. War is not a bastion of truth and responsibility. All wars consist mostly of pain and cruelty. Which is why we work so hard to avoid them.

Before 10/7, there was no war. There is now. Hamas should not have brought this war upon themselves and the Palestinian people. Hamas didn't work hard to avoid it - they invited it.

Nobody ever really wins in any war. There should be no special recognition for those that invite war. Other than guilt.

 

Murdering journalists doesn’t keep Israeli’s safe. 

[uncle bernard]

41 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

There are caveats to this theory.  First is the average median age of males in the general population.  For Palestine I believe it is around 18 years of age.  Much lower than the global population.  This does imply that your theory could be correct.  It also highlights one of the biggest issues counter terrorism deals with in that these jihadist groups target pre teens to indoctrinate.  At the same time, no one has given a solid counter argument on how to deal with Hamas.  It's not so black and white

One way to deal with Hamas is to take away their reason for being: to oppose the brutal Israeli occupation. 

Hamas is in power because all peaceful avenues have failed. As long as the occupation continues, there will always be resistance and stochastic terror. 

[PortaJohn]

14 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

One way to deal with Hamas is to take away their reason for being: to oppose the brutal Israeli occupation. 

Hamas is in power because all peaceful avenues have failed. As long as the occupation continues, there will always be resistance and stochastic terror. 

You honestly believe that at this time that if Palestine was given all their pre 1948 land back that Hamas an autocratic regime would cease to exist by giving their power back to the other Palestinians they subjugate?  You honestly believe that?  You don't take into consideration that if your plan came into fruition it would embolden Hezbollah, other extreme jihadist regimes, and Iran to cause more chaos in the region? 

[uncle bernard]

6 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

You honestly believe that at this time that if Palestine was given all their pre 1948 land back that Hamas an autocratic regime would cease to exist by giving their power back to the other Palestinians they subjugate?  You honestly believe that?  You don't take into consideration that if your plan came into fruition it would embolden Hezbollah, other extreme jihadist regimes, and Iran to cause more chaos in the region? 

what’s the definition of insanity?

[PortaJohn]

6 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

what’s the definition of insanity?

Can you answer my question?  You honestly believe Hamas ceases to exist if Israeli's just packed up and left?  They would just give up all their power they now have over Palestinians? 

[ionel]

25 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

what’s the definition of insanity?

when your uncle says/posts the same thing over & over again expecting a different result  

[Plasmodium]

29 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Can you answer my question?  You honestly believe Hamas ceases to exist if Israeli's just packed up and left?  They would just give up all their power they now have over Palestinians? 

The answer to this question shines light on a major obstacle to peace.  The ones who suffer the horrors of war are not necessarily the ones waging it.

[Offthemat]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

One way to deal with Hamas is to take away their reason for being: to oppose the brutal Israeli occupation. 

Hamas is in power because all peaceful avenues have failed. As long as the occupation continues, there will always be resistance and stochastic terror. 

Hamas reason for being is to kill Jews. 
They stay in power by using barbarism and murder of their own people. 

[uncle bernard]

40 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Can you answer my question?  You honestly believe Hamas ceases to exist if Israeli's just packed up and left?  They would just give up all their power they now have over Palestinians? 

It’s a disingenuous question, but I’ll answer. 

A political solution wouldn’t involve Israel just packing up and leaving. It would involve both sides making concessions. Hamas would have to agree to halt any attacks and commit to an open election supervised by the UN (remember, only a small fraction of Gazans have ever voted for Hamas). Israel would commit to ending the blockade of Gaza, ending the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and pull the IDF out of Palestinian territory. You’d likely need a one time blanket amnesty for war crimes for Hamas/PIJ militants, Israeli Settlers, and IDF brass.

It would be essential for the international community to pour trillions into Palestine to rebuild their infrastructure and economy. 

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

One way to deal with Hamas is to take away their reason for being: to oppose the brutal Israeli occupation. 

Hamas is in power because all peaceful avenues have failed. As long as the occupation continues, there will always be resistance and stochastic terror. 

what a crock o' shit.

hamas is in power b/c they are funded by genocidal muslims

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Hamas would have to agree to halt any attacks and commit to an open election supervised by the UN (remember, only a small fraction of Gazans have ever voted for Hamas). . 

Can we fly you over to negotiate this agreement with Hamas?

[uncle bernard]

7 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

what a crock o' shit.

hamas is in power b/c they are funded by genocidal muslims

who funded Hamas to to start and brought them to power?

[PortaJohn]

8 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

It’s a disingenuous question, but I’ll answer. 

A political solution wouldn’t involve Israel just packing up and leaving. It would involve both sides making concessions. Hamas would have to agree to halt any attacks and commit to an open election supervised by the UN (remember, only a small fraction of Gazans have ever voted for Hamas). Israel would commit to ending the blockade of Gaza, ending the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and pull the IDF out of Palestinian territory. You’d likely need a one time blanket amnesty for war crimes for Hamas/PIJ militants, Israeli Settlers, and IDF brass.

It would be essential for the international community to pour trillions into Palestine to rebuild their infrastructure and economy. 

There is nothing disingenuous about my question!  I asked you a legit question and you're solution is literally to involve a terrorist organization at the table to negotiate peace.  An organization who's backed by Iran who's entire political goal in the middle east is the destruction of Israel.  If anyone is being disingenuous it's your Disney World solution.  

[Husker_Du]

3 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

who funded Hamas to to start and brought them to power?

so that means it's ok for Hamas to bomb them?

hamas (and all terror orgs) are abominable. but ol' uncle bernard, he's here to cast the blame at the victims.

is your brain broke? 

[Offthemat]

7 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

It’s a disingenuous question, but I’ll answer. 

A political solution wouldn’t involve Israel just packing up and leaving. It would involve both sides making concessions. Hamas would have to agree to halt any attacks and commit to an open election supervised by the UN (remember, only a small fraction of Gazans have ever voted for Hamas). Israel would commit to ending the blockade of Gaza, ending the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and pull the IDF out of Palestinian territory. You’d likely need a one time blanket amnesty for war crimes for Hamas/PIJ militants, Israeli Settlers, and IDF brass.

It would be essential for the international community to pour trillions into Palestine to rebuild their infrastructure and economy. 

The Israeli blockade isn’t to block any peaceful commerce, it’s to block terrorist weapons.  Just as the Egyptians do. 

[Offthemat]

9 minutes ago, ionel said:

Can we fly you over to negotiate this agreement with Hamas?

They’d waste no time killing him.  Well, maybe a little. 

[Husker_Du]

16 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

 

It would be essential for the international community to pour trillions into Palestine to rebuild their infrastructure and economy. 

Palestine elects Hamas leaders. Hamas commits atrocities to Israel. Israel responds. And it's the international community that should foot the bill?

the best end to this story is Israel once and for all taking over the entire state. 

let the countries that fund terror take in their proxies. 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

19 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

One way to deal with Hamas is to take away their reason for being: to oppose the brutal Israeli occupation. 

Hamas is in power because all peaceful avenues have failed. As long as the occupation continues, there will always be resistance and stochastic terror. 

I appreciate your post, you've convinced me.

As you said, Hamas will always kill Israelis in terrorist attacks because Israelis live where they currently live.

So, yes, Israel 100% needs to remove Hamas from their position of authority in Gaza. There is no other logical option.

This is purely dictated by logic, not from taking sides.

The best we can hope for is for the number of casualties to be minimized. Especially civilians.

Edited October 29, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[Paul158]

20 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

what’s the definition of insanity?

Trying to figure this out on a forum behind a computer.