Israel Attacked

[Offthemat]

17 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Yet, they literally trained and armed groups who did all those things all through Latin America. Not disputed history.

Not in the name of terrorism.  Raping, beheading, and burning alive don’t require training.
 I have a very dim view of the CIA; Tuskegee, Gladio, Northwoods, etc.  Truman regretted forming the agency, Eisenhower warned us about them, JFK died trying to eliminate them, Nixon was taken down after making statements to the same effect, yet they still exist, strong as ever.  They operate as an entity unto themselves, often beyond even the president’s control.  Who’s to blame?

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Offthemat said:

Not in the name of terrorism.  Raping, beheading, and burning alive don’t require training.
 I have a very dim view of the CIA; Tuskegee, Gladio, Northwoods, etc.  Truman regretted forming the agency, Eisenhower warned us about them, JFK died trying to eliminate them, Nixon was taken down after making statements to the same effect, yet they still exist, strong as ever.  They operate as an entity unto themselves, often beyond even the president’s control.  Who’s to blame?

What does "not in the name of terrorism" mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre

"On the afternoon of December 10, 1981, units of the Salvadoran Army's Atlácatl Battalion, which was created in 1980 at the U.S. Army's School of the Americas, arrived at the remote village of El Mozote after a clash with guerrillas in the vicinity."

"During the morning, they proceeded to interrogate, torture, and execute the men in several locations. Around noon, they began taking the women and older girls in groups, separating them from their children and murdering them with machine guns after raping them. Girls as young as 10 were raped, and soldiers were reportedly heard bragging about how they especially liked the 12-year-old girls. Finally, they killed the children, at first by slitting their throats, and later by hanging them from trees; one child killed in this manner was reportedly two years old. After killing the entire population, the soldiers set fire to the buildings."

"What made the Morazan massacre stories so threatening was that they repudiated the fundamental moral claim that undergirded US policy. They suggested that what the United States was supporting in Central America was not democracy but repression. They therefore threatened to shift the political debate from means to ends, from how best to combat the supposed Communist threat—send US troops or merely US aid?—to why the United States was backing state terrorism in the first place."

 

[Offthemat]

20 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

What does "not in the name of terrorism" mean?

That the goal or mission of the American people, nor policy, has been terrorism.  The CIA is a different story, though I believe they more accept barbarism than push it.  They may teach tactics, kidnapping, and interrogation, but raping, mutilation, beheading, and burning are extracurricular.  

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Offthemat said:

That the goal or mission of the American people, nor policy, has been terrorism.  The CIA is a different story, though I believe they more accept barbarism than push it.  They may teach tactics, kidnapping, and interrogation, but raping, mutilation, beheading, and burning are extracurricular.  

utter nonsense. grow up. 

[Offthemat]

44 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

"On the afternoon of December 10, 1981, units of the Salvadoran Army's Atlácatl Battalion, which was created in 1980 at the U.S. Army's School of the Americas,

 

By whose order was this battalion created?

[uncle bernard]

6 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

By whose order was this battalion created?

They were trained by the United States military at Ft. Bragg.

You're not going to talk your way around this one. Direct US government involvement. Not "just" your rogue CIA excuse.

[Offthemat]

21 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

utter nonsense. grow up. 

Really, really convincing.  

[Offthemat]

7 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

They were trained by the United States military at Ft. Bragg.

You're not going to talk your way around this one. Direct US government involvement. Not "just" your rogue CIA excuse.

That’s not responsive to the question. 

[uncle bernard]

8 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

That’s not responsive to the question. 

I'm sure they were "created" by the Salvadoran government and then trained at Ft. Bragg before assisted by US Special Operatives in the field in El Salvador.

If you think this is somehow a work around for you, you're an idiot lol.

[Husker_Du]

5 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

so was the hospital bombed or not? or just the parking lot? were there actually casualties? was that 500-1000 number accurate? and what/who was the source of the rocket?

what a clusterF of misinformation/confusion/journalism.

and i'm not even choosing sides. i'm saying all around. 

can anyone answer this? 

[WrestlingRasta]

6 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

can anyone answer this? 

Consensus seems to be missile from inside Gaza (most likely Islamic jihad) failed, dropped in parking lot at the hospital, majority of the fire from cars and gasoline, little structural damage. Death toll likely closer to 100 than 1000. 

[mspart]

20 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Consensus seems to be missile from inside Gaza (most likely Islamic jihad) failed, dropped in parking lot at the hospital, majority of the fire from cars and gasoline, little structural damage. Death toll likely closer to 100 than 1000. 

This

mspart

[Husker_Du]

58 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Consensus seems to be missile from inside Gaza (most likely Islamic jihad) failed, dropped in parking lot at the hospital, majority of the fire from cars and gasoline, little structural damage. Death toll likely closer to 100 than 1000. 

thanks. pretty crazy...the trajectory of this story and how it was (mis) reported.

can't remember a situation where just about every outlet reported similar things and all were wrong. 

[mspart]

25 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

thanks. pretty crazy...the trajectory of this story and how it was (mis) reported.

can't remember a situation where just about every outlet reported similar things and all were wrong. 

They took Hamas health agency at their word.   They didn't critically think about it at all.   Well Hamas said it so it must be so.   Biden missed a meeting with Jordan, PLO, and others because of the lie.  

mspart

[Husker_Du]

i thought i read/heard that the Arab leaders declined to meet with him.

[ionel]

3 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Consensus seems to be missile from inside Gaza (most likely Islamic jihad) failed, dropped in parking lot at the hospital, majority of the fire from cars and gasoline, little structural damage. Death toll likely closer to 100 than 1000. 

Can't be ... Benard said otherwise.  He's on the ground.  

[uncle bernard]

3 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Consensus seems to be missile from inside Gaza (most likely Islamic jihad) failed, dropped in parking lot at the hospital, majority of the fire from cars and gasoline, little structural damage. Death toll likely closer to 100 than 1000. 

Failed rocket certainly isn’t consensus at this point. None of the evidence Israel has presented stands up to scrutiny. The audio recording it presented has been shot down as a likely fake by arabic experts. The two “hamas” agents aren’t speaking the right dialect among other issues. 

And Israel can’t decide where the rocket launched from. They have two separate locations in their presentation without realizing. 

FWIW, al jazeera has a breakdown of the Israeli claims here: 

 

The only possibility I see from the video of a failed rocket is if the debris from the intercepted rocket fell on the hospital, but that wouldn’t match the explosion would it? Why didn’t that happen with the other thousands of iron dome interceptions?

[Le duke]

Failed rocket certainly isn’t consensus at this point. None of the evidence Israel has presented stands up to scrutiny. The audio recording it presented has been shot down as a likely fake by arabic experts. The two “hamas” agents aren’t speaking the right dialect among other issues. 
And Israel can’t decide where the rocket launched from. They have two separate locations in their presentation without realizing. 
FWIW, al jazeera has a breakdown of the Israeli claims here: 
 
The only possibility I see from the video of a failed rocket is if the debris from the intercepted rocket fell on the hospital, but that wouldn’t match the explosion would it? Why didn’t that happen with the other thousands of iron dome interceptions?

None of those things derail that narrative, though.

1) Multiple launch sites ARE possible.

2) Hamas is an international organization.

3) If Hamas or anyone else was storing a volatile substance outside the hospital, boom.

4) JDAMs leave big ass craters. Have you seen one, geolocated, from the hospital?


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[uncle bernard]

4 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

None of those things derail that narrative, though.

1) Multiple launch sites ARE possible.

2) Hamas is an international organization.

3) If Hamas or anyone else was storing a volatile substance outside the hospital, boom.

4) JDAMs leave big ass craters. Have you seen one, geolocated, from the hospital?


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1) They’re claiming one failed rocket launched from two different sites. That isn’t possible. 

2) Sure, but there are other issues with the video than that. On a basic level, we’re supposed to believe Israel didn’t know 1000s of fighters amassed on the border for an attack that had been planned for 2 years, but were able to obtain a recording on an unsecured channel admitting to fault within a couple hours of this strike?

3) Sure, but we have no evidence of that and we haven’t seen that occurrence elsewhere in Gaza either. 

4) True. I think JDAM is out. But that isn’t the only munition Israel uses. It has air-bursting munitions that don’t cause the same kind of structural damage or craters as JDAMs. 

 

 

[uncle bernard]

And also needs to be said both sides have a history of lying about these things, even within this incident. 

It appears the damage and death toll may have been exaggerated (hopefully). 

and in the aftermath, the IDF trotted out multiple videos claiming proof that it was Hamas that it later had to delete when they were shown to be at a different time than the strike. 

Truth was not the foremost thing on either of their minds. They’re trying to win and it’s important to remember they have no problem lying in service to that. I certainly got swept up in it and own that. I still maintain my overall position on the conflict: ceasefire now!

[Husker_Du]

what is the mission/plan now?

has it been stated or even assumed that Israel wants to take control of the entire palestinian state?

if not, what do we expect going forward? 

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

what is the mission/plan now?

has it been stated or even assumed that Israel wants to take control of the entire palestinian state?

if not, what do we expect going forward? 

Probably continuing strikes for a while. There have been leaks out of the IDF that top command is very nervous about sending troops in. There are some serious doubts about the fighting capability of IDF infantry and an inexperienced and untested force might not fare well in a ground invasion on Hamas’ home turf. The IDF has operated as a glorified police/security force for a long time, mostly in the illegal West Bank settlements. 

And to be frank, Hamas wants it more. A huge portion of the IDF are kids doing their mandatory service time who want no part in a brutal war where they can actually die. 

[uncle bernard]

fwiw, Sy Hersh , who is not a perfect source but does get enough right to take seriously says his sources say Israel really really wants the civilians to move south (preferably into Egypt). Once they do, they feel they can unleash a torrent of bunker busters, destroying most of north Gaza where Hamas is concentrated, and kill enough fighters in the tunnels to make a ground invasion and annexation more tenable. 

[Le duke]

what is the mission/plan now?
has it been stated or even assumed that Israel wants to take control of the entire palestinian state?
if not, what do we expect going forward? 

If they go into the hornet’s nest, a la Blackhawk Down, things will get really interesting, fast.


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[Husker_Du]

3 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

fwiw, Sy Hersh , who is not a perfect source but does get enough right to take seriously says his sources say Israel really really wants the civilians to move south (preferably into Egypt). Once they do, they feel they can unleash a torrent of bunker busters, destroying most of north Gaza where Hamas is concentrated, and kill enough fighters in the tunnels to make a ground invasion and annexation more tenable. 

but Egypt won't let them in, correct?