This is just getting ridiculous

[BuckyBadger]

32 minutes ago, Holtfan said:

You are saying smaller programs will get cut because they can't win the NCAA?  A kid who transfers away from a smaller program rarely has a negative financial impact on the program he is leaving. Programs typically get cut for political reasons---take Eastern Michigan, for example. They were self-funded mostly from a former wrestler who set up an endowment---and the cut the program so they could also cut a couple women's programs (insert Title IX) and be able to build a new practice facility for their football team.   

I would agree with you that the NIL has an impact, but I suggest that has a greater impact on the larger revenue sports like Basketball and Football, than it does on wrestling, which generates little to nothing to a school's athletic budget. 

Just my view from the cheap seats......

 

I’m saying the financial side of things is important. Most athletic departments lose money, and the powers that be probably don’t want to keep most of these non revenue sports. Having an All-American every few years keeps a program relevant.

You’re right about the political reasons programs get cut, but the financial side of things is a big component as well.

[Wrestleknownothing]

54 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Serious question, when was the last season eight schools had a champ?

2015 there were 9

In the 10 weight era (1952-1965 and 1970-present) there have been 8 unique schools win individual titles 16 times, 9 unique schools 8 times (2105 being most recent), and 10 unique schools 6 times (2009 being most recent).

The average number of unique schools during these 67 years was 7.5, so 8 is not an outlier.

Note: the graph below is inaccurate for 2019. I have Suriano listed at two schools, so Tableau counts that as unique when it isn't. I didn't feel like changing the underlying data structure to fix the graph though.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Wrestleknownothing

[Le duke]

I would be surprised if Truax got any money at all. Or wanted any, for that matter. The amounts being thrown about on message boards aren’t really a concern for his family.


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[ionel]

25 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

 I didn't feel like changing the underlying data structure to fix the graph though.

* sigh *

[Caveira]

9 minutes ago, Le duke said:

I would be surprised if Truax got any money at all. Or wanted any, for that matter. The amounts being thrown about on message boards aren’t really a concern for his family.


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If his family is rich (I have no idea)….. wouldn’t you think not passing up $$& opportunities is exactly how they got and stay rich?    

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 minutes ago, ionel said:

* sigh *

I know, right?

[AKHUNTER]

5 hours ago, Holtfan said:

Not to long ago Iowa won 11 of 12 and 9 of 10 and in a span of 25 years, Iowa won it 20 times.......and not many people complained about them getting all the talent back then.  

 

because "back then" Iowa was coaching them up.......... now days incoming wrestlers have so much experience they come in ready to go. And PSU is getting almost ALL the top guys. Only $$$$ would have the landscape making change. The portal will have an effect on the guys that come into PSU and NOT be THE GUY. But even then THE GUY isn't entering the portal. So you still have PSU with nearly ALL the top guys.

[Le duke]

because "back then" Iowa was coaching them up.......... now days incoming wrestlers have so much experience they come in ready to go. And PSU is getting almost ALL the top guys. Only $$$$ would have the landscape making change. The portal will have an effect on the guys that come into PSU and NOT be THE GUY. But even then THE GUY isn't entering the portal. So you still have PSU with nearly ALL the top guys.

Huh? All the top guys? Look at Penn State’s recruiting class from 2022.

Haines. That’s it. Per Flo, he was #9. Add in #18 Messenbrink. Most pundits would knock both of them down a spot if you include Chittum in there.

Also, funny how the guy who is #9/#10 in the class finished far ahead of anyone else.

Sorry, Willie, I can’t find your rankings for the class of 2022.




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[scourge165]

7 hours ago, Holtfan said:

Not to long ago Iowa won 11 of 12 and 9 of 10 and in a span of 25 years, Iowa won it 20 times.......and not many people complained about them getting all the talent back then.  

 

First of all, I don't think people are actually complaining. I think they're more in awe of what PSU has managed to accomplish, the talent they're assembling.

Second, I'd have to go and look up the threads from Iowa's 1983 run to see what people were saying in order to compare the opinion regarding PSU's dominating and that of Iowa.

7 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

There is usually a dominant team that others gripe about. But what’s going on today is you have a guy at a smaller school that outperforms and suddenly becomes very valuable. There are a handful of schools that have wrestling donors willing to pay up for that kid. Why would that kid stay at a Cal Poly or Northwestern when they can not only go to Iowa or Penn St. but also get paid to do it?

If the majority of the time some small or lesser funded school has a freshman or sophomore become an All-American that transfers to the big programs that buy them up, not only are things less competitive but those programs that already have to fight for their existence are more likely to get cut.

I heard what you're saying, but I think this is a bit of an outlier. Relatively few kids actually transfer vs those who've had success. And a guy like Nagao is transfering from a program that's pretty rich in tradition itself.

What's more, there aren't many spots people are going to be able to transfer into PSU at...or Iowa or OSU.

 

I don't think this has the devastating impact you're suggesting, but again, it's just better for the sport if there are more competitive teams and less transferring. 

[MPhillips]

24 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think they're more in awe of what PSU has managed to accomplish

I believe they're more in awe that someone other than Iowa has been doing it...

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, Le duke said:

Huh? All the top guys? Look at Penn State’s recruiting class from 2022.

Haines. That’s it. Per Flo, he was #9. Add in #18 Messenbrink. Most pundits would knock both of them down a spot if you include Chittum in there.

Also, funny how the guy who is #9/#10 in the class finished far ahead of anyone else.

Sorry, Willie, I can’t find your rankings for the class of 2022.




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First, lets start by pointing out that it's not accurate to say Iowa didn't get the best Wrestlers just as PSU is now and they just developed them. They were getting many of the best as well and they were also using any means(legal) to them. Again, they were running camps, paying the established stars like the Brands(the guys who you'd go to the camp for beyond just the obvious that it was a Gable camp) and he'd pay them cash(again, legally) so they could pay their own tuition, they'd come off scholarship and then he'd be able to offer a full scholarship to a Mcllravy, Ironside...etc...(both big time recruits) or the Williams who were again, elite recruits.

 

As for that list...that's a little mis-leading. Now do '23 and '24.

They had 5 a ton of young talent already going into that '22 class. 

They really are getting their pick of Wrestlers. 

I'd venture a guess that this was one of PSUs worst recruiting classes in a long time. But "all the talent" is obviously hyperbole. They're getting their pick of Wrestlers...and, they've earned it. Even if they had the historic class OSU had, what would it change?

 

Tom Ryan needs to take the talent he brought to tOSU, develop 2,3,4 National Champs from that class. They need to find a way to better develop some of these studs they get. That's how it builds upon itself. That and I'll go back to the idea that landing a guy like Snyder or DT when they're ready to move into coaching, that could be HUGE for a program like OSU(particularly OSU).

[BuckyBadger]

36 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

First of all, I don't think people are actually complaining. I think they're more in awe of what PSU has managed to accomplish, the talent they're assembling.

Second, I'd have to go and look up the threads from Iowa's 1983 run to see what people were saying in order to compare the opinion regarding PSU's dominating and that of Iowa.

I heard what you're saying, but I think this is a bit of an outlier. Relatively few kids actually transfer vs those who've had success. And a guy like Nagao is transfering from a program that's pretty rich in tradition itself.

What's more, there aren't many spots people are going to be able to transfer into PSU at...or Iowa or OSU.

 

I don't think this has the devastating impact you're suggesting, but again, it's just better for the sport if there are more competitive teams and less transferring. 

That may be true, but I think the days of an Edinboro or Central Michigan having a period where they are right up there with the second tier of teams are effectively over.

[AKHUNTER]

3 hours ago, Le duke said:

Huh? All the top guys? Look at Penn State’s recruiting class from 2022.

Haines. That’s it. Per Flo, he was #9. Add in #18 Messenbrink. Most pundits would knock both of them down a spot if you include Chittum in there.

Also, funny how the guy who is #9/#10 in the class finished far ahead of anyone else.

Sorry, Willie, I can’t find your rankings for the class of 2022.




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um...... "almost"

[Le duke]

um...... "almost"

Ok. Does 1 (or 2) of the top 20 or 30 guys in a recruiting class qualify as “almost” all of the top guys, to you?


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[Jamie_Taco]

9 hours ago, Holtfan said:

Not to long ago Iowa won 11 of 12 and 9 of 10 and in a span of 25 years, Iowa won it 20 times.......and not many people complained about them getting all the talent back then.  

 

That's because Iowa and Gable weren't getting all the top talent back then. Gable averaged less than one top-10 recruit per class. It was also a lot harder to find the best of the best back then. You had to travel and use your contacts; no Flo to watch matches.

Iowa Top 10 Recruits under Gable (1976 - 1997) ( .76 per year):
1976

 

1. King Mueller Bolingbrook HS, Bolingbrook, IL
2. Mike DeAnna Bay Village HS, Bay Village, OH

1977

1. Randy Lewis Stevens HS, Rapid City, SD
2. Dean Phinney Clear Lake HS, Clear Lake, IA

1978

[None]

1979

1. Mark Trizzino Central HS, Joliet, IL
2. Jeff Kerber Emmetsburg HS, Emmetsburg, IA

1980

[None]

1981

[None]

1982

[None]

1983

1. Steve Knight Clinton HS, Clinton, IA
2. Mark Sindlinger Charles City HS, Charles City, IA

1984

1. Joe Melchiore Highland Reg. HS, Blackwood, NJ

1985

[None]

1986

Terry Brands

1987

1. Bart Chelesvig Webster City HS, Webster City, IA

1988

[None]

1989

[None]

1990

1. Ray Brinzer N. Allegheny HS, Wexford, PA * [Iowa did not recruit Brinzer]

1991

[None]

1992

1. Mike Mena Newman Central Catholic HS, Illinois
2. Lincoln McIlravy Phillip HS, South Dakota

1993

1. Jeff McGinness Iowa City HS, Iowa
2. Joseph Williams Mt. Carmel HS, Illinois

1994

[None]

1995

[None]

1996

[None]

[AKHUNTER]

16 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Ok. Does 1 (or 2) of the top 20 or 30 guys in a recruiting class qualify as “almost” all of the top guys, to you?


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I am not going to go down their roster and show you how many top 10 guys they have. you are cherry picking one particular year. I don't think you are trying to say they get very few top 10 guys .........or are you?

[Jamie_Taco]

Just to compare:

Penn State's Top 10 Recruits under Sanderson (2009 - 2024) (1.9 per year):

2009

1. David Taylor, St. Paris, OH

2010

1. Andrew Alton, Lock Haven, PA
2. Dylan Alton, Lock Haven, PA

2011

1. Morgan McIntosh - Santa Ana, CA
2. Nico Megaludis – Murrysville, PA

2012

1. Jimmy Gulibon – Derry, PA

2013

1. Zain Retherford – Benton, PA

2014

1. Jason Nolf - Rural Valley, PA
2. Nick Nevills - Clovis, CA
3. Bo Nickal – Allen, TX

2015

1. Vincenzo Joseph – Pittsburgh, PA

2016

1. Mark Hall - Apple Valley, MN
2. Nick Suriano – Paramus, NJ
3. Mason Manville – Lorton, VA

2017

1. Brady Berge
2. Nick Lee

2018

1. Aaron Brooks
2. Michael Beard

2019

1. Greg Kerkvliet
2. Carter Starocci

2020

1. Beau Barlett
2. Robert Howard

2021

1. Alex Facundo
2. Shayne Van Ness

2022

1. Levi Haines

2023

1. Josh Barr

2024

1. Luke Lilledahl
2. Joseph Sealey
3. Zack Ryder
4. Mason Gibson
5. Connor Mirasola

Edited April 23, 2023 by Jamie_Taco

[scourge165]

10 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

That may be true, but I think the days of an Edinboro or Central Michigan having a period where they are right up there with the second tier of teams are effectively over.

We'll see. It's really just 2 or 3 Wrestlers to be a top 10 team. Last time I can recall Edinboro being a top 10 team would PROBABLY be when they had King at '65, Dubuque at '25 and I'm guessing maybe 2 other AAs. That's still well within reach. 

There HAVE been teams this dominant before. PSU has yet to put together a run like Iowa did in '83 or '97(though I think they're going to). 

I don't know how Cornell is a powerhouse given the disadvantages they have...or how PSU wasn't ALWAYS dominant.

It's really no different than CFB, but there's a larger pool of teams that can win it year to year. I know a HS coach who has won multiple State Titles and he has his teams celebrate each Conference Championship(they went like...14 years and 120 some duels without losing) and every Regional Title(probably won more of those than Conf Titles) because he didn't want his kids thinking the only thing worth celebrating was a State Title.

I think a good coach applies that College. You celebrate an ACC, Ivy, B12, MAC title, celebrate NQs. We take more of a Macro view, but a really close friend of mine had a kid win a D2 Title. That was a monumental accomplishment. 

So it doesn't have to be JUST about NCAA Team Titles...even if that's what we're going to focus on here on the boards.

 

2 hours ago, MPhillips said:

I believe they're more in awe that someone other than Iowa has been doing it...

If that was the case, people would have been in awe the last decade. 

PSU APPEARS to be reaching a whole other level. They're competing against themselves at this point and it looks like they're kicking their own ass from the last decade.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Jamie_Taco said:

That's because Iowa and Gable weren't getting all the top talent back then. Gable averaged less than one top-10 recruit per class. It was also a lot harder to find the best of the best back then. You had to travel and use your contacts; no Flo to watch matches.

Iowa Top 10 Recruits under Gable (1976 - 1997) ( .76 per year):
1976

 

1. King Mueller Bolingbrook HS, Bolingbrook, IL
2. Mike DeAnna Bay Village HS, Bay Village, OH

1977

1. Randy Lewis Stevens HS, Rapid City, SD
2. Dean Phinney Clear Lake HS, Clear Lake, IA

1978

[None]

1979

1. Mark Trizzino Central HS, Joliet, IL
2. Jeff Kerber Emmetsburg HS, Emmetsburg, IA

1980

[None]

1981

[None]

1982

[None]

1983

1. Steve Knight Clinton HS, Clinton, IA
2. Mark Sindlinger Charles City HS, Charles City, IA

1984

1. Joe Melchiore Highland Reg. HS, Blackwood, NJ

1985

[None]

1986

Terry Brands

1987

1. Bart Chelesvig Webster City HS, Webster City, IA

1988

[None]

1989

[None]

1990

1. Ray Brinzer N. Allegheny HS, Wexford, PA * [Iowa did not recruit Brinzer]

1991

[None]

1992

1. Mike Mena Newman Central Catholic HS, Illinois
2. Lincoln McIlravy Phillip HS, South Dakota

1993

1. Jeff McGinness Iowa City HS, Iowa
2. Joseph Williams Mt. Carmel HS, Illinois

1994

[None]

1995

[None]

1996

[None]

What site are you using here?

That Royce Alger isn't on there is telling. Gable certainly considered him a top recruit, as did ISU. 

I think this is an apples to oranges thing, but even with that, Barry Davis, Ed and Lou Banach, TJ Williams, these were all some of the best recruits in the Country and they all wanted to go to Iowa.
Didn't Ryan just show up at Iowa and tell Gable he wanted to come out for the team? That's a pretty nice guy to just show up at your doorstep and ask to come Wrestle for you. 

You have actual Wrestling showcases now that you didn't have in the whole time Gable was there, but he was definitely getting premiere talent. 

You're comparing era's of Wrestling that were just WAY too different, but at a time when there was less Wrestling coverage than there is now, not only do I not buy the premise that Iowa didn't get the best Wrestlers, but I also don't get why this is a point of contention.

BOTH programs built themselves into the type of powerhouse that the best athletes WANTED to Wrestle at. 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

I love it when the subtext to these debates is "yeah, but my team did it with virtue".

So silly.

[MPhillips]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

If that was the case, people would have been in awe the last decade. 

Stop it. 

 

[Jamie_Taco]

13 hours ago, scourge165 said:

What site are you using here?

That Royce Alger isn't on there is telling. Gable certainly considered him a top recruit, as did ISU. 

I think this is an apples to oranges thing, but even with that, Barry Davis, Ed and Lou Banach, TJ Williams, these were all some of the best recruits in the Country and they all wanted to go to Iowa.
Didn't Ryan just show up at Iowa and tell Gable he wanted to come out for the team? That's a pretty nice guy to just show up at your doorstep and ask to come Wrestle for you. 

You have actual Wrestling showcases now that you didn't have in the whole time Gable was there, but he was definitely getting premiere talent. 

You're comparing era's of Wrestling that were just WAY too different, but at a time when there was less Wrestling coverage than there is now, not only do I not buy the premise that Iowa didn't get the best Wrestlers, but I also don't get why this is a point of contention.

BOTH programs built themselves into the type of powerhouse that the best athletes WANTED to Wrestle at. 

 

Wrestling USA Magazine, which is about the only rankings I know of from back then.

Barry and Royce weren't even Iowa HS 4xers, TJ was a community college recruit and never wrestled for Gable, the Banach's were multiple sport athletes and weren't top 10 recruits, and Tom Ryan transferred to Iowa from Syracuse, so I highly doubt he just showed up one day lol.

Someone made the comment that Iowa stockpiled talent just like PSU is doing, and the fact is, that's simply not true. Gable was a master motivator and was known for developing good, not great, kids into champs (e.g. Chris Campbell won a single HS state title, then went to on to win three NCAA titles, a world gold, and an Olympic medal). Sure he had some top guys come in over the years as I've shown, but it was nothing in comparison to what we are seeing happen with Cael and PSU.

[ionel]

13 hours ago, MPhillips said:

Stop it. 

 

You need to behave. 

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Jamie_Taco said:

Barry and Royce weren't even Iowa HS 4xers ...

And how many 4xers do you know of back then? 

[Jamie_Taco]

7 minutes ago, ionel said:

And how many 4xers do you know of back then? 

Four 4x Iowa champs prior to Barry (Bob Steenlage, Jeff Kerber, Scott Morningstar, Joe Gibbons).

Seven 4x Iowa champs prior to Royce (Bob Steenlage, Jeff Kerber, Scott Morningstar, Joe Gibbons, Greg Randall, Mark Schwab, Dan Knight).

Did you have a point? Take a guess at how many of these 4xers I listed went on to win multiple NCAA titles along with Olympic and world medals..