Shilson v Mortimer head bounce

[Dark Energy]

Listening to Askren - says it is a well known move to bounce opponents face off mat from that position.  Fair move.  Whole purpose is to slam face into mat so that they release grip to protect head. 

What? It is a wrestling move to purposefully slam a head into the mat.  That is the whole purpose of the move so that the other wrestler releases a grip?

I say no.  Hell no.  If this logic works, then purposeful elbow to face should be just fine.  Or knee to face.  How about head butt to face.  All involve purposefully slamming face with force. 
 

It is BS.

 

[Mike Parrish]

13 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Listening to Askren - says it is a well known move to bounce opponents face off mat from that position.  Fair move.  Whole purpose is to slam face into mat so that they release grip to protect head. 

What? It is a wrestling move to purposefully slam a head into the mat.  That is the whole purpose of the move so that the other wrestler releases a grip?

I say no.  Hell no.  If this logic works, then purposeful elbow to face should be just fine.  Or knee to face.  How about head butt to face.  All involve purposefully slamming face with force. 
 

It is BS.

 

Name a single USA senior world team member who stoops to this type of stuff.

I've seen multiple wrestling careers ended, mostly at the collegiate level, where dirty wrestlers were served up a heaping pile of their own product.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Do you have a video example of this?

[Mike Parrish]

1 minute ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Do you have a video example of this?

WCWAs in person.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Mike Parrish

[billyhoyle]

You're allowed to bounce your opponent once.  Two times and it's double dribbling, so the ref blows the winner.  Three times and you're out of here. 

[Dark Energy]

Are there examples of legal moves where the full intent is to injure your opponent in order to get the opponent to release a hold?  
 

Askren was very clear - this head bounce move is to be executed by slamming the person’s head hard into the mat.  Really hard.  Askren emphasized this.  The risk of injury (smashed nose / face; concussion) is what you are trying to instill on your opponent - this prompting them to release the elbow.

Some ideas I expect will come up and we’re mentioned on FRL.

Very hard head snap - there is downward pressure on head but not as much as with this bounce.  Opponent hands are generally free.  Has more opportunity to mitigate risk given hand position, strength of back, and distance to mat.  So not as extreme a risk but worth debate.  

Lift and return to mat.  Opponent needs to protect themself.  But lifting wrestler also has duty to not slam.  Specifically, they can’t drill opponent head into mat.  Lifted wrestler has time to decide what to do.  That first head bounce is very quick and hard to react that fast.  Express goal of move is not to threaten injury.  

[uncle bernard]

this was the worst DQ i've ever seen. every coach i've ever had taught to "bounce" the opponent's head of the mat to clear elbows. in practice, this is not literal. it's a coaching queue that just means to snap and retract the elbows to clear when your opponent has to react to the snap. it is not mortimer's fault that shilson did not react and got her face bounced of the mat. there was nothing dirty there whatsoever.

i saw another "headbutt" DQ that was just as bad at the same tournament. nothing more than sexism/treating women wrestler's like they're children made of glass. zero percent chance a men's match is officiated this way.

https://twitter.com/MrPatMineo/status/1647356658887057412?s=20

Edited April 18, 2023 by uncle bernard

[uncle bernard]

3 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Are there examples of legal moves where the full intent is to injure your opponent in order to get the opponent to release a hold?  
 

Askren was very clear - this head bounce move is to be executed by slamming the person’s head hard into the mat.  Really hard.  Askren emphasized this.  The risk of injury (smashed nose / face; concussion) is what you are trying to instill on your opponent - this prompting them to release the elbow.

Some ideas I expect will come up and we’re mentioned on FRL.

Very hard head snap - there is downward pressure on head but not as much as with this bounce.  Opponent hands are generally free.  Has more opportunity to mitigate risk given hand position, strength of back, and distance to mat.  So not as extreme a risk but worth debate.  

Lift and return to mat.  Opponent needs to protect themself.  But lifting wrestler also has duty to not slam.  Specifically, they can’t drill opponent head into mat.  Lifted wrestler has time to decide what to do.  That first head bounce is very quick and hard to react that fast.  Express goal of move is not to threaten injury.  

you're overreacting to a coaching queue. i also hear people say "punch a crossface." 

i can't believe there are actual wrestling fans who thing a front headlock snap is dirty. honest question: did you actually wrestle?

[Dark Energy]

Yes.  I wrestled. Did you even listen to Askren. He was literal.  Very clear.  Objective was to threaten injury and bounce head off mat hard.

I’m fine with up and down bouncing.  I’m not fine with a fast and intentional smashing of opponents head into the mat so that for the next one the person releases a hold.  That is bullshit.

how is this different from a top wrestler with bottom wrestler flat,  putting both hands on opponent’s head, and then slamming the opponent’s face repeatedly into mat so they build a base?

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Dark Energy

[El Luchador]

You stretch out and bounce, that standard in that position.  Which of these 2 wrestlers did the head bounce? 

[Plasmodium]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wrestling/comments/12nnp7f/help_me_understand_the_decision_to_disqualify/

 

[Scouts Honor]

how about clubbing the head? 

[Scouts Honor]

we pulled the man out... not down... this extends them so they go flat... or let go to stay off the mat...

sometimes it ended up being a bounce.

 

[Scouts Honor]

on cross face... we found that if you slammed your bicep into the ear it didn't bring a point like using your forearm on the face

[Scouts Honor]

i mean every move is based on leverage of some kind... 

is the risk of concussion a little different.. i think yes in light of our knowledge of head injuries 

 

we used to have guys gumby out of a spiral..  let their shoulder slip so they could get a potential dangerous call... 

obviously a spiral is going against a joint... whether the shoulder comes up or not...

 

[El Luchador]

I honestly didn't think that was so bad. At this level one needs to learn proper defensive front head position.  I know Emily has been plagued with concussion issues and that probably is more of a reason for the KO than the move itself.

[uncle bernard]

Every time a rules debate goes big on social media, I'm unfortunately reminded how ignorant the average wrestling fan is. We saw it with the cutback debate after Dapper Dan. 90% of fans don't understand the rules beyond the rudimentary basics, but speak on them as authoritative experts.

2 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Yes.  I wrestled. Did you even listen to Askren. He was literal.  Very clear.  Objective was to threaten injury and bounce head off mat hard.

I’m fine with up and down bouncing.  I’m not fine with a fast and intentional smashing of opponents head into the mat so that for the next one the person releases a hold.  That is bullshit.

how is this different from a top wrestler with bottom wrestler flat,  putting both hands on opponent’s head, and then slamming the opponent’s face repeatedly into mat so they build a base?

 

 

Because they're defenseless in that scenario. You can't be serious. 

Shilson has a responsibility to protect herself and she didn't. That's not Mortimer's fault. 

When I snap someone or throw an underhook by, I don't do it half-speed on the off chance my opponent doesn't react and flies face first into the mat. 

The reality is that this was a freak accident resulting from clean technique. Shilson's concussion history is a major player here. It sucks, but it's on her. She didn't protect herself in a standard wrestling position.

[Yellow_Medal]

You're allowed to bounce your opponent once.  Two times and it's double dribbling, so the ref blows the winner.  Three times and you're out of here. 

The ref does what now?!

[Mike Parrish]

https://www.usawmembership.com/usa_wrestling_rule_book

Quote

Brutality

It is against the rules to intentionally inflict pain on the opponent by using unnecessary roughness with the clear intent to injure an opponent. The wrestler who uses these types of holds and moves will be disqualified from the match they are competing in and may be disqualified from the tournament.  If the officials decide to call brutality against a wrestler, it must be unanimous among all three officials.  Any calls for the wrestler who committed brutality to be removed from the tournament will be reviewed by the head official.

All three mat officials agreed and then head official agreed as well.

 

[billyhoyle]

1 hour ago, Yellow_Medal said:

The ref does what now?!
 

*whistle . They got rid of the edit button here. 

[Dark Energy]

@uncle bernardyour logic has tremendous holes.  Pretty much no move would be illegal.  Opponent just needs to defend themselves.  Easy as that.  Stop being a wus.  

[Mike Parrish]

2 hours ago, Yellow_Medal said:

The ref does what now?!

Unsportsmanlike!

Caution and 2.

[mspart]

5 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/wrestling/comments/12nnp7f/help_me_understand_the_decision_to_disqualify/

 

I have to say I have never seen anyone do that in any match I've been in or have watched.   I would call that slamming and not part of wrestling.  I was crossfaced once in veterans competition that was pretty brutal, I almost went out.   I was stunned and really couldn't wrestle for a little while, and as a result lost pretty bad. 

mspart

[mspart]

I feel I need to clarify.   I was never that good, but did wrestle at Veterans Nationals 3 years in Vegas.   I had a good time, met some great folks, and lost a lot.  The match described above, probably would have ended in a loss as well without the crossface.    Looking back I think I should have gotten really mad and took it to him, but I was really stunned to where I couldn't move much.   It wasn't even real competition, just a side match because he didn't have any competition at his age and weight.   I've been crossfaced many times, but that was the hardest one I have ever had put on me.   I would not say it was illegal or illegitimate.   But I certainly was not ready for it. 

mspart

[Plasmodium]

2 hours ago, mspart said:

I have to say I have never seen anyone do that in any match I've been in or have watched.   I would call that slamming and not part of wrestling.  I was crossfaced once in veterans competition that was pretty brutal, I almost went out.   I was stunned and really couldn't wrestle for a little while, and as a result lost pretty bad. 

mspart

I was inclined to agree with @El Luchador.  However, it is also possible Shilson was stunned by the first one and it didn't occur to her that she needed to change defense.