Your thoughts on which colleges should bring back (or start) wrestling?

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, ionel said:

Not all b10s have men's soccer, they should.

They also don't all have Baseball. 

It's a little different than Wrestling. DEFINITELY different than Water Polo. 

Wrestling has become a revenue sport for MOST of the B1G. You can say that about very-very few sports.

 

[Formally140]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:44 PM, scourge165 said:

Too many Colleges have folded Wrestling under the guise of Title9 when in reality that had little to do with it. 

But hey, whatever gets the job done.

Women's Wrestling and MMA...both have been great for Men's wrestling. 

Again for the people in the back. Title IX was the excuse not the reason. 

UTC doesn’t have Baseball or Men’s Soccer but has wrestling. Other schools wrestling teams/coaches made doing it the other way … way too easy with grades, behavior and the coaches doing the “anti politics” wrestling coaches take weird pride in. 

We also never really pushed to get our guys in Admin. beyond just coaching.

Im well aware of what happened to Norte Dame and ODU. There were still dozens of schools where the wrestling team made it pretty easy to pick which team to cut

 

[scourge165]

18 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Again for the people in the back. Title IX was the excuse not the reason. 

UTC doesn’t have Baseball or Men’s Soccer but has wrestling. Other schools wrestling teams/coaches made doing it the other way … way too easy with grades, behavior and the coaches doing the “anti politics” wrestling coaches take weird pride in. 

We also never really pushed to get our guys in Admin. beyond just coaching.

Im well aware of what happened to Norte Dame and ODU. There were still dozens of schools where the wrestling team made it pretty easy to pick which team to cut

 

Did you read what I wrote?

Too many Colleges have folded Wrestling under the guise of Title9 when in reality that had little to do with it. 

I agreed with you.

In some cases, Title9 did make it the obvious sport as there wasn't a Women option, but largely it was just a way to cut costs and even when costs for that program were covered because it'd mean that they'd have to fund another women's program(so I guess Title9 played some role, but it's grossly overstated). Which is pretty much what i said last time around.

[Formally140]

2 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Did you read what I wrote?

Too many Colleges have folded Wrestling under the guise of Title9 when in reality that had little to do with it. 

I agreed with you.

In some cases, Title9 did make it the obvious sport as there wasn't a Women option, but largely it was just a way to cut costs and even when costs for that program were covered because it'd mean that they'd have to fund another women's program(so I guess Title9 played some role, but it's grossly overstated). Which is pretty much what i said last time around.

I was trying to emphasize and add on to your point. My bad if it came across differently. 

[vsnej]

On 2/18/2023 at 12:04 AM, Jason Bryant said:

More of a myth than reality. The conference only sponsored for 9 years and Georgia and Alabama never had an All-American, while LSU and Tennessee saw their best years actually post-SEC sponsorship. Auburn had the longest history, but as a whole, the conference as a conference wasn’t very good. I can’t get at the stats right now but I looked at them a few days ago.

Yeah, being from New Jersey I took an interest in fellow Jerseyans Larry Sciacchatano, Ricky Dellagatta, Clarence Richardson, etc., going down south.  The SEC had multiple AA's 8 times in 11 years from 1975 thru 1985.  They also had 4 different teams (Kentucky, Auburn, LSU & Tennessee) place in top 10 scoring.  So while saying that "the SEC used to have some tough wrestling" may be giving the conference a little too much cred - "more of a myth than reality" may be a little bit harsh.

[AKHUNTER]

22 hours ago, ionel said:

And I was just joking.  I hated the way they portrayed Alaska's funding, there's a good reason they need more dollars spent per capita on airports than any other state, etc. 

I knew you were joking. Just thought I might let people know what actually happened.

[scourge165]

11 hours ago, Formally140 said:

I was trying to emphasize and add on to your point. My bad if it came across differently. 

Nope...all good. I probably should have figured it out.

 

I grew up hearing how Title9 was just awful. Shockingly, it's not quite that simple! It does hurt Wrestling a bit, but again, mostly, it's just used as an excuse. 

[Formally140]

12 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Nope...all good. I probably should have figured it out.

 

I grew up hearing how Title9 was just awful. Shockingly, it's not quite that simple! It does hurt Wrestling a bit, but again, mostly, it's just used as an excuse. 

Wrestling keeps shooting itself in the foot and a good chunk want to act like the angry entitled little man martyr instead of taking the steps to be up there with the big sports. 
 

Where I coach, we in our area have a new admin who overwhelmingly is supportive of wrestling. Even helped the coaches association with printing out certificates out of his own pocket.. in return he respects professionalism, coaches to answer emails, communicate appropriately if there are bus issues, and have their paperwork in order.. the same thing he expects from football and basketball coaches..

coaches keep coming to me as the Coaches association head and whining about him expecting “too much”. Even though it’s the same expectations as football.. then whine about not getting enough support 

[Warm Up Champ]

On 2/20/2023 at 5:16 AM, Fadzaev2 said:

Here's a link to all the all-americans from Portland State, mostly division II, but some division I  .....maybe Saunders, Yatabe and Dan Russell with the most division I finishes.  There are four pages of all-americans you can navigate through here.  Fadz     https://nwhof.org/national-wrestling-hall-of-fame/champions-database?school=203

Thank you @Fadzaev2.  Portland State does indeed have a storied history.  The move up from DII to DI and the Pac-10 was tough.  The school never funded and fully backed the program in that move, it was a difficult task to be competitive as a team.  However the school did qualify wrestlers to the D1 tourney and had some Pac 10 finalists in the late 90's/early 2000's.

[Jason Bryant]

21 hours ago, vsnej said:

Yeah, being from New Jersey I took an interest in fellow Jerseyans Larry Sciacchatano, Ricky Dellagatta, Clarence Richardson, etc., going down south.  The SEC had multiple AA's 8 times in 11 years from 1975 thru 1985.  They also had 4 different teams (Kentucky, Auburn, LSU & Tennessee) place in top 10 scoring.  So while saying that "the SEC used to have some tough wrestling" may be giving the conference a little too much cred - "more of a myth than reality" may be a little bit harsh.

I don't know if I'm harsh here. 

The SEC run from 1972-1980 ended up with 21 All-Americans
After the breakup, that left the remaining schools in the East and Midwest Regions (depending on the year) to place 19 wrestlers from 1981-85. So the Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, Kentucky crew was more prolific after the conference broke up.

The SEC got 21 AA's out of 142 qualifiers in those 9 years sponsoring the sport, while the four (then three teams left as Auburn's last year was 1981) provided 19 AA's out of 69 qualifiers in those 5 years. 

SEC schools had some fierce wrestlers, but the SEC as a whole, the conference was not great. Georgia, Alabama and Florida collectively earned 1 All-American from 1972-1980. 

[vsnej]

18 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

I don't know if I'm harsh here. 

The SEC run from 1972-1980 ended up with 21 All-Americans
After the breakup, that left the remaining schools in the East and Midwest Regions (depending on the year) to place 19 wrestlers from 1981-85. So the Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, Kentucky crew was more prolific after the conference broke up.

The SEC got 21 AA's out of 142 qualifiers in those 9 years sponsoring the sport, while the four (then three teams left as Auburn's last year was 1981) provided 19 AA's out of 69 qualifiers in those 5 years. 

SEC schools had some fierce wrestlers, but the SEC as a whole, the conference was not great. Georgia, Alabama and Florida collectively earned 1 All-American from 1972-1980. 

Ok, appreciate the history lesson.  I did say "some tough" wrestling not great wrestling.  Bottom line I think we can both agree that it would be great for wrestling to make a return back in the SEC.

[Jason Bryant]

1 hour ago, vsnej said:

Ok, appreciate the history lesson.  I did say "some tough" wrestling not great wrestling.  Bottom line I think we can both agree that it would be great for wrestling to make a return back in the SEC.

I agree in theory, but at the same point, putting wrestling at the SEC schools means they're no better than what in terms of their importance on campus? Football, Basketball and Baseball are undoubtedly 1-2-3 and it's not close in the SEC. 

Do non-football D1 schools move the needle nationally? No. But there can be models shown where wrestling is a money sport on campuses that can draw interest. Let's use another hockey reference, since I've learned a lot about our sport by working in another this year. 

North Dakota has a football team in FCS. That is not the primary sport on campus, hockey is. That's what they care about. That's where the sport can see growth is becoming a big deal on those campuses where there isn't the competition for the fanbase. 

Be great if the SEC gave a damn about something other than money. It's only great for wrestling if those schools actually committed to it. If you look at the roster of men's sports in the SEC, the conference very much cares about doing the bare minimum to sponsor sports. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:52 AM, Jason Bryant said:

Be great if the SEC gave a damn about something other than money. It's only great for wrestling if those schools actually committed to it. If you look at the roster of men's sports in the SEC, the conference very much cares about doing the bare minimum to sponsor sports. 

Amen, brother! 

[Offthemat]

Maybe Cincinnati, to replace OU when they leave. 

[Fadzaev2]

10 hours ago, Offthemat said:

Maybe Cincinnati, to replace OU when they leave. 

Ah yes, Cincinnati...1972, 126 pounds defending NCAA Champion and Oklahoma State great loses on injury default to Howard Fox (Cinci/coach Stan Able)....Fox gets pinned next round and is out.  This opened the door for a freshman Pat Milkovich to win his first NCAA title.

[Offthemat]

13 hours ago, Fadzaev2 said:

Ah yes, Cincinnati...1972, 126 pounds defending NCAA Champion and Oklahoma State great loses on injury default to Howard Fox (Cinci/coach Stan Able)....Fox gets pinned next round and is out.  This opened the door for a freshman Pat Milkovich to win his first NCAA title.

Fujita?

[Fadzaev2]

15 hours ago, Fadzaev2 said:

Ah yes, Cincinnati...1972, 126 pounds defending NCAA Champion and Oklahoma State great loses on injury default to Howard Fox (Cinci/coach Stan Able)....Fox gets pinned next round and is out.  This opened the door for a freshman Pat Milkovich to win his first NCAA title.

 

1 hour ago, Offthemat said:

Fujita?

Yes....I should have included his name, Yoshiro Fujita, who ended up at Okie State as he had defeated Yojiro Uetake in a trials matches in Japan* and Uetake put Myron Roderick on to him.  Uetake was undefeated in college and a 2 time Olympic Champion.  *I had read this somewhere.

[Offthemat]

I saw a film of him once.  He reminded me of a cat; no matter what his opponent did he landed on his feet with his claws in him. 

[1032004]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:52 AM, Jason Bryant said:

I agree in theory, but at the same point, putting wrestling at the SEC schools means they're no better than what in terms of their importance on campus? Football, Basketball and Baseball are undoubtedly 1-2-3 and it's not close in the SEC. 

I mean isn't this the case even at Penn State and pretty much all of the "Power 5" schools?

[Jason Bryant]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I mean isn't this the case even at Penn State and pretty much all of the "Power 5" schools?

Not exactly. For example, Penn State and Ohio State have over 30 sports and show an actual appreciation for non-revenue and Olympic sports. It's easy to spot the difference - P5's cutting sports like cross country and tennis and golf due to "expense" is the biggest farce. 

[1032004]

7 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Not exactly. For example, Penn State and Ohio State have over 30 sports and show an actual appreciation for non-revenue and Olympic sports. It's easy to spot the difference - P5's cutting sports like cross country and tennis and golf due to "expense" is the biggest farce. 

Agree, but that’s not really mutually exclusive from “Football, Basketball and Baseball are undoubtedly 1-2-3.”

Teams like NC State and VT are good examples of southern schools that have built a pretty good following for wrestling despite not being very good historically and probably still not being in the top 3 sports in importance at the school.

[Jason Bryant]

Fair point. Perhaps a better explanation would be 1-2-3 full stop vs schools that are 1-2-3-4-5 … with their commitment to sports

[TexRef]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:08 AM, Formally140 said:

Again for the people in the back. Title IX was the excuse not the reason. 

UTC doesn’t have Baseball or Men’s Soccer but has wrestling. Other schools wrestling teams/coaches made doing it the other way … way too easy with grades, behavior and the coaches doing the “anti politics” wrestling coaches take weird pride in. 

We also never really pushed to get our guys in Admin. beyond just coaching.

Im well aware of what happened to Norte Dame and ODU. There were still dozens of schools where the wrestling team made it pretty easy to pick which team to cut

 

Hey @Formally140 would you mind sharing your knowledge on the Notre Dame wrestling demise? I ask not for a friend, but for those of us that are fuzzy on the details, (I am not sitting in the back) to those that might not be as "long in the tooth" as most of the posters on this forum, and of course, for those in the back.  Thanks in advance! 

[1032004]

1 hour ago, Jason Bryant said:

Fair point. Perhaps a better explanation would be 1-2-3 full stop vs schools that are 1-2-3-4-5 … with their commitment to sports

Yeah.  And I get your point about the small schools too, and showing them how wrestling can be a positive for enrollment and/or revenue (especially now when combined with a women’s team) and hopefully leading to more D1 teams.

I guess my main point was IMO I think it’s going to be easier for Power 5 schools to get competitive wrestling teams just from the resources from being at that school, even if they’re towards the bottom of the totem pole in terms of importance to the school.

[ionel]

On 2/23/2023 at 9:52 AM, Jason Bryant said:

 

Be great if the SEC gave a damn about something other than money. It's only great for wrestling if those schools actually committed to it. If you look at the roster of men's sports in the SEC, the conference very much cares about doing the bare minimum to sponsor sports. 

Be great too if the b10 cared enough not to raid other programs and conferences and would stop promoting themselves as the only conference that has wrestling.  Not exactly the way to grow the sport.