Vega > Forrest

[neweruser69]

He may not be as exciting, but his body of work is inarguably better than Jax's this year. He straight up doesn't make any sense.

In a weird way he reminds me of Dake because he is so incredibly problematic to wrestle in folkstyle. There's just no good gameplan for him.

It's like watching the slenderman out there or something.

[jackwebster]

4 hours ago, neweruser69 said:

There's just no good gameplan for him.

Yeah (at least not yet). Again, Eche presents the worst match-up for him bc he's super strong and doesn't really go to his knees when he shoots. If Eche had that same attack to the other side, it would take away Vega's whizzer and cradle. Idk.

[RawDog]

I think stanich might be able to beat him.  Would love to see that match.

[lu_alum]

I think stanich might be able to beat him.  Would love to see that match.

It would be a nice bout for the All Star classic. What’s the likelihood Vega ever sees 141 again?


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[BAC]

4 hours ago, RawDog said:

I think stanich might be able to beat him.  Would love to see that match.

Agree. Stanich doesn’t put himself in bad positions. Mendez is more willing to. Vega needs you to get in a bad position to beat you.

[Air_Thurman]

3 minutes ago, BAC said:

Agree. Stanich doesn’t put himself in bad positions. Mendez is more willing to. Vega needs you to get in a bad position to beat you.

Does he though? What bad position did Mendez put himself into? Mendez hit him with a shot he probably finishes on every single guy in the world at that weight. 

 

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, BAC said:

Vega needs you to get in a bad position to beat you.

Actually looked like he beats you when you are in a good position.  Sure looked the losing wrestler was in much better position several times, almost certain to get TD or exposure points.  

[BAC]

10 hours ago, neweruser69 said:

He may not be as exciting, but his body of work is inarguably better than Jax's this year. He straight up doesn't make any sense.

In a weird way he reminds me of Dake because he is so incredibly problematic to wrestle in folkstyle. There's just no good gameplan for him.

It's like watching the slenderman out there or something.

Inarguably better?

I dunno about that. He had more matches this year but he was the least dominant among all the unbeaten champs, in that he had the fewest bonus points. His bonus rate was less than Lilledahl, Forrest, Mesenbrink, Haines, Barr, Trumble. About half of Forrest’s.

You can argue dominance from a defensive perspective, eg hardest to score on, sort of like what people would be saying if Davino won. But saying that alone makes his body of work more impressive is… arguable, not inarguable.

And outside the college contest, Jax’s freestyle accomplishments are certainly better. Inarguably. 

[neweruser69]

5 minutes ago, BAC said:

Inarguably better?

I dunno about that. He had more matches this year but he was the least dominant among all the unbeaten champs, in that he had the fewest bonus points. His bonus rate was less than Lilledahl, Forrest, Mesenbrink, Haines, Barr, Trumble. About half of Forrest’s.

You can argue dominance from a defensive perspective, eg hardest to score on, sort of like what people would be saying if Davino won. But saying that alone makes his body of work more impressive is… arguable, not inarguable.

And outside the college contest, Jax’s freestyle accomplishments are certainly better. Inarguably. 

Get outa town he beat a defending 2X champ and one of the leading hodge contenders in the final.

[BAC]

7 minutes ago, Air_Thurman said:

Does he though? What bad position did Mendez put himself into? Mendez hit him with a shot he probably finishes on every single guy in the world at that weight. 

 

I hear you. But theres a reason guys like Hardy and Bartlett have wins over Mendez, and it isn’t their offense — it’s their counteroffense. I agree Mendez has tightened it up this year, and that scoring sequence was a position where Vega is unusually good (especially with his length), but Mendez in general is a guy who prefers to take the fight to the opponent rather than waiting for him to make a mistake, and is willing to extend himself since, as you say, he can usually finish even when his technique is less than pristine. Vega loves opponents like that, and he is sort of an improved version of Hardy in this regard.

But Stanich is not like Mendez, and won’t over-extend. His 3rd place match with Hardy was not especially close as he gave Hardy zero openings. 

[jackwebster]

24 minutes ago, BAC said:

Vega needs you to get in a bad position to beat you.

Idk. I think he just needs to get close enough to use "all four hands," i.e. latch-on with both arms/hands and legs/feet. Doesn't seem to matter how. He'll take a terrible shot (BTW 7 shots to Mendez's 2/3 last night) just to get give THE OTHER GUY a chance to work short offense.  He just needs a chance to latch on. That dude is doing all sorts of weird gripping and readjustments the entire time he's attached. E.g. did you see the weird grip he had on the inside of Mendez's knee? (His thumb was down.) 

 

Edited March 22 by jackwebster

[CHROMEBIRD]

I'm still in shock that Mendez lost. It was like he was trying to take down a rubber band.

[ionel]

32 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I'm still in shock that Mendez lost.  He was trying to take down a rubber band.

ftfy 

[KSoze]

2 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Idk. I think he just needs to get close enough to use "all four hands," i.e. latch-on with both arms/hands and legs/feet. Doesn't seem to matter how. He'll take a terrible shot (BTW 7 shots to Mendez's 2/3 last night) just to get give THE OTHER GUY a chance to work short offense.  He just needs a chance to latch on. That dude is doing all sorts of weird gripping and readjustments the entire time he's attached. E.g. did you see the weird grip he had on the inside of Mendez's knee? (His thumb was down.) 

 

Vega did not take seven shots. He might have waved his hands and fallen to his knees seven times, but he did not shoot. 

It's absolutely a tactic to induce the other guy to come forward, but it's not a true shot. 

[jackwebster]

14 minutes ago, KSoze said:

Vega did not take seven shots. He might have waved his hands and fallen to his knees seven times, but he did not shoot. 

It's absolutely a tactic to induce the other guy to come forward, but it's not a true shot. 

Re # of shots: If you say so.

Re tactic: Of course it is, but your argument reminds me of .  . .

 

Edited March 22 by jackwebster

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, KSoze said:

Vega did not take seven shots. He might have waved his hands and fallen to his knees seven times, but he did not shoot. 

It's absolutely a tactic to induce the other guy to come forward, but it's not a true shot. 

Define "a shot." 

[OMW]

Difficult to gauge which one is "better", Forrest lights up the scoreboard, great on his feet, looks like he's improvising but isn't, just transitions from move to move like few ever have - whereas Vega can put up 7 or a pin on anyone that gets to his leg(s), good shot or bad (and as a counter-wrestler, I enjoy seeing that!).

Contrasting styles with the same results - true frosh national champions.

No reason to try and figure out which is best, just enjoy what they did and what they may achieve in the future!

[Gantry]

Maybe we don't have the old timey stats to know, but has there ever been an undefeated true freshman champ who was never taken down all year? Pretty darn incredible what he did

 

Edited March 22 by Gantry

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, Gantry said:

 has there ever been an undefeated true freshman champ who was never taken down all year? 

maybe 1947 Hutton

[Offthemat]

23 minutes ago, KSoze said:

Vega did not take seven shots. He might have waved his hands and fallen to his knees seven times, but he did not shoot. 

It's absolutely a tactic to induce the other guy to come forward, but it's not a true shot. 

Izzat called a setup?

[Air_Thurman]

56 minutes ago, KSoze said:

Vega did not take seven shots. He might have waved his hands and fallen to his knees seven times, but he did not shoot. 

It's absolutely a tactic to induce the other guy to come forward, but it's not a true shot. 

So how many shots did Mendez take? I don’t care how you define a shot Vega was the more active guy in the match. 

[BAC]

5 hours ago, Gantry said:

Maybe we don't have the old timey stats to know, but has there ever been an undefeated true freshman champ who was never taken down all year? Pretty darn incredible what he did

 

Pat Smith?

[ionel]

53 minutes ago, BAC said:

Pat Smith?

Pat was not undefeated true Fr year.  It can only be Hutton.  

[PortaJohn]

20 hours ago, neweruser69 said:

He may not be as exciting, but his body of work is inarguably better than Jax's this year. He straight up doesn't make any sense.

In a weird way he reminds me of Dake because he is so incredibly problematic to wrestle in folkstyle. There's just no good gameplan for him.

It's like watching the slenderman out there or something.

He'll have to make adjustments if/when he moves up in weight.  He uses his length to his advantage @141.  Won't be the case at the upper weights.  Will be fun to see the adjustments he and Taylor come up with

[Truzzcat]

17 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

He'll have to make adjustments if/when he moves up in weight.  He uses his length to his advantage @141.  Won't be the case at the upper weights.  Will be fun to see the adjustments he and Taylor come up with

I would have said the same thing about Ridge but he was even better and he went up two weights will definitely be interesting to see how it unfolds. I would have picked Jesse against the field at 149 this year.