dragit

While this cart is a couple of months ahead of its horse, I'll bite on the question, which at first I thought was silly - Dake, of course, but the more I thought about it, even though I am still firmly Dake, you can make some interesting arguments for Lee. As I've argued in lots of these threads, I've got Dake as my best ever because no redshirt (won a title nine months after being a high school student), beat three different champs and a terrific wrestler (2x finalist, probably should have been 3x but for refs) in his finals, well in control of all his NCAA matches, went up a weight and went 3-0 against the defending and future Hodge winner, etc. Though I've never understood why the usual first argument people make is the 4 weight classes in 4 years. It's a nice nugget, but it's more trivia than substance; he won four championships against people who weighed the same, it's not like he made weight at 141 the day he beat Taylor. Lee has had several losses, including being pinned once, losing to Ronnie Bresser once, and getting outwrestled by Sebastian Rivera twice (and having Mueller take care of him before there could be a third meeting), and hasn't beaten competition as strong as Dake's in his finals. He's missed a ton of matches with injuries. The body of work isn't really comparable to Dake. But there are some notable intangibles. He's put together a terrific record, with what I do think is going to end up with 4 titles, by overcoming a ludicrous series of major injuries, surgeries, and illnesses -- the depth of which are totally unchartered territory in the four-timer club (maybe even the two-timer club, any historians with a view on this?). And in the limited windows when he's been fresh, he's been simply transcendent -- a comet lighting up huge crowds at NCAAs and Carver; always attacking; scoring, scoring, scoring; technically beautiful; insanely strong. He generates a buzz like no one else because he's got talent and skill like no one else. And he'll probably end up with three Hodges. I wouldn't put him as my top 4 timer over Dake but I've got him in kind of a special exciting anti-wuss club of his own.

It seems like a mutated vision quest and that he's actually avoiding competition. My guess is that he thinks he won't make the final at 133 over a world silver medalist and a guy who has beaten that guy twice in the finals. So the play is to fight the weight battle, get a 2 or 3 seed and be on the other half of the draw from Shute, be well hydrated for Friday night and win the semis, cut hard overnight, weigh in, get over 140 for Saturday night, and hope for the best, or more likely that Shute tears whatever L's are still in his legs while marching to the final.

I was trying to be diplomatic because, as I noted, both schools kept a perma-seal lid on the reasons -- best personified by the classic passive voice press release from Northwestern, just weeks before the season started, that said that, essentially in enirety, "Drew Pariano is no longer with Northwestern University." Totally agree that it's pretty amazing he had to leave coaching given his lightning bolt success particularly as a recruiter. But we got nothin'. So I'm just assuming that whatever happened related to his aforementioned strong personality.

I've always thought Kenney is a very solid professional. Enjoy his work at NCAAs (early round and wrestle backs). He and Harrison are a pleasant combo. Usually I'm not crazy about the highly caffeinated approach like Rock, but he's so endearing and such a nice fit with Kenney that it works pretty well.

He did go to Binghamton several years ago. Think it lasted about half an hour or so. Not coaching since. Although everyone at Northwestern and Binghamton managed to keep a lid on, my inference is that his very strong personality was both his greatest strength and his biggest problem as a coach and probably didn't make that profession a good long term fit for him.

It's also subject to arithmetic. If 133 goes "RBY by MAJ," as predicted, then the score will be 18-18, not 18-17. Although I guess Iowa still wins on criteria because of Lee's fall? (Although out of fairness, shouldn't his opponent get some sort of bonus point if he can last till the second period before getting stuck? Good grief Lee is not messing around. Him "healthy" is just something to behold.)

Good stuff for sure. I only saw Caliendo at Scuffle but the energy coming from his corner was noticeable and he was clearly wrestling all out to win, not just happy to be in a close match with a 2x finalist.

I just want to say that Griffith is making a mockery of modern college wrestling. First he is insubordinate. He refuses not to train when his school basically tells him not to and then he goes and wrestles in a national tournament after his school cancels his program. Then after he shamefully forced his school to keep his and many other programs which do not generate revenue but rather are just about student athletes, he disgracefully insists -- a national champion, no less! -- on wrestling at every opportunity. He takes on his top rival 4 times in a single year, who does he think he is? Kyle Dake? Tom Brands? Those guys are relics! And then this year he -- how gauche, a 2x NCAA finalist -- not only enters but actually wrestles in a holiday tournament. And then, to top it off, less than two weeks later he refuses to duck, and loses to, the guy who gave him all he wanted in the Scuffle final. I say this guy has violated so many norms of decent conduct that he should be canceled and never spoken of on these boards ever again.

Mad props to all posters on this thread. Getting to a second page of legit posts on Indiana-Maryland is a true tribute to the board's members as true fans.

Absolutely. Nothing like winning by pinfall in the first period to get booted from the Hodge list. Spencer, ye are banished. Hopefully you can find a way to a spot somewhere on the podium in March.

Just a good wake up call. He got pinned by Picc and then blew through the field in March. This time he didn't get pinned and stuck his opponent flat as a pancake before the same period even ended. And according to a previous thread, Glory won't have enough energy left over after cutting down to go down the stairs to his basement, let alone do any pushups. They'll fill a 125 lb bracket in March and Lee will have to beat five guys to win just like anyone else. But the only way I see that not happening is a fluke pin. He was down 8-1 today and I think that if he hadn't gotten the pin that he would have eventually gotten a tech.

He looks pretty good physically. By my eye test he's ahead of where he was at this point in January compared to his freshman year. Similar situation, coming off surgery, gassed out first few matches. But this time no giant knee brace and he looks more agile and free than he did in January 2018. Which is why, if he has no setbacks physically, I think he'll be even better in March than he was in 2018 -- and he was a killing machine in Cleveland.

If Lee stays healthy and gets his matches in, they will need a special cleaning crew to scrub the remains of his opponents off the mats in Tulsa.

Got it, thanks. I totally agree that everyone in the sport should be vigilant about a relapse on rampant dangerous weight cutting. I'm just trying to understand what we know about Glory. I can't find anything in writing with the facts about what he's planning to do. Which leaves the possibility that they may be making a reasonable plan, based on knowledgeable input, to limit the number of times he will weigh in that is designed to protect him. I'm not an expert but would this be analogous to freestyle where there is some severe cutting but it isn't as dangerous because relatively few times on the scale. Personally I don't like it. I join the frustration in a lot of these threads about the Incredible Shrinking Wrestling Season and guys wrestling very few matches, this just exacerbates that. I also think that there have been a lot of examples recently of great wrestlers having success when they don't cut a lot of weight. But as far as Glory's health goes, while antennae are rightfully up at the news of this unusual plan (coupled with the entry and then withdrawal at 133), I hadn't seen any tangible evidence that this is dumb and dangerous. And I'd hope that the coaches, who are generally held in high regard (which I question given their direction to him to cut Suriano in the last minute of the final last year ) have tried to come upon a solution that minimizes risk.

What are you referencing?

I have been reading all the stuff in multiple threads on this topic with interest and sadness and I appreciated Coach Smith's comments. My engagement has gone way down because of these issues. I didn't consider going to Midlands for a second this year. I used to plan winter break around it. I doubt I'll go to any dual meets. I don't watch as many matches on line as I used to. Etc. I watched a lot of football this weekend, which I never do, and I'm sure it's because I'm not following wrestling as closely as I always used to after baseball ended. I have reservations but at this point am not sure I'll go to NCAAs. Even that has become less fun with the endless TV timeouts after every weight every round. I have zero good answers for any of this, only a simple question: CAN'T THERE BE SOME SORT OF HAPPY MEDIUM BETWEEN 45 MATCHES A YEAR AND 15?!?! OK got stuff off my chest and proved I'm now officially a curmudgeon. Hey you get off my lawn!!

I think they stopped carrying the tournament a few years before covid. To me that was another brick in the wall in the tournament's decline, which had many causes, some probably the tournament's fault, most probably beyond their control. That said, though, I would say that they have done better than I would have thought in putting together some good draws this year without Iowa.

I hadn't bought in before, but at this point I think you've got to give some props to Kevin Dresser. He's done a great job rebuilding. If you watched his press conference after, it showed his intelligence and command. He didn't taunt or call anyone an orange. Strictly professional, with matter-of-fact but insightful answers. He's playing a long game and knows he's made a lot of progress, a 5-5 split against Iowa with Lee and Woods in the lineup, with 15,000 people holding their breath for 10 seconds of a locked-up cradle at 285 -- he knows there's no need to spin anything anymore, this is a real team and a real program.

I think it shouldn't. First match in a year after major surgery. And we've seen him look like this before. He's had many matches where he gassed, which has been, including today, a combination of him wrestling harder than anyone else from the first whistle and him pushing himself to wrestle while on the mend from major injuries and illness. He looked like he needed to go to the hospital after the Bresser match at Midlands and was completely toast against Glory, as two examples. If there ever something to take a grain of salt with, it's Spencer's performance on December 4th in his first time back after having to medically redshirt in a season that he was desperate to finish with his compadres last year.

Just awful. Then they put the Dean match at the top of the web page and you watch it and it gets to the beginning of SV and the announcer calls the TD as they are still showing a replay, the video and audio are ten seconds apart, then when the video comes back they have a poor shot of the takedown. Obviously #1 losing is a big deal but if I were them I wouldn't have highlighted my own incompetent production as the top story. Particularly during CKLV weekend.

Deleted - double post.

I'd take that 149 bracket, which has unchallenged star power, but you're right, 2016 141 is a good underrated weight. PLUS: Gross 141!! Forgot about that. That's a long way from 57 kg! Man.

People are mentioning Lee here as if it's a real thing. I wouldn't have thought the Spencer Watch would start until mid January or so.

Correct, no shoulder brace in March 2021. He was wrestling terrific. He beat Starocci 7-2 two weeks before in the conference final, and had four blowout wins (TF, TF, MD, 8-1) at NCAAs before the final match with Starocci, and had to be viewed as the clear favorite in that match.

You are totally correct on those points. And I think HR or anyone who thinks that about 2022 is wrong. Instead, Penn State is just better. The writing was actually on the wall in the 2021 finals when Lee and Starocci reversed the Big Ten results against Eierman and Kemerer. There were no injury issues there. And no significant talent discrepancy. And it's got nothing to do with how much money Penn State has and whether Andrew Long's repulsive behavior and Ed Ruth's penchant for weed and Cael having thrown a chair reveal a program peopled by fallible human beings, which they are -- but they're also the best wrestling coaches for and in this era. When Starocci beat Kemerer, to me the air came out of the balloon enough that the tide had turned (and whatever other mixed metaphors I can throw in). Kemerer was a top PA recruit, terrific guy, had hit his stride that year, dominated Starocci at Big Tens, and lost to the freshman at NCAAs anyway. When he gave up the TD in OT his body language was telling - the kid had made the adjustments and beaten him when it mattered.