dragit

I had no expectation of anything different from the crowd and would have been very surprised by an ovation. The program and its fans strike me as ruthlessly focused on winning with no sentimentality. (I mean that descriptively, not pejoratively.)

Yep, completely understand, just substitute "clients" for "compliance officers." Anyway, everyone here should be glad you need the diversion.

Every time I read one of your gems like this, I think, "Why can't the people I work with be this thorough, engaging, and insightful?" And then I think, "I wonder if the people he works with ask why he goes through the motions with them while saving all his thoroughness, engagingness, and insightfulness for that gang of has-beens and ne'er do wells on that pathetic wrestling board?"

I would go with the fellow that has engendered so much discussion on the other threads tonight. There is something unique about watching Lee fire off the opening whistle and go as hard as he can as long as he can. I haven't seen O'Toole since the preseason exhibition. Through that match I'd probably have had him second, I love his balance and crispness. But I have seen a couple of comments like Vak's about him being a little flatter during this season than he was before.

And I do not disagree that senior level is going to be a big challenge, success not by any sense guaranteed. Looking forward to watching and fervently hoping that his knees give him a chance to take his best shot.

Obviously wrestling fans will all be very interested to see -- and their ultimate judgment of his career will be heavily influenced by -- how he does at the senior level when he gets a chance. He blew through the U.S. Open in 2019 and fate hasn't allowed him to wrestle there again since. Part of him not being able to have any senior matches in three years is due to "his decisions," which I am quite sure he will "feel good about" when his career is over; he has a strong personality, weighs information, makes decisions which he feels are right for him, and lives with them. Kind of like an adult.

... this is becoming ridiculous ... 2018 NCAA semis, third period, last minute pin of Tomasello... 2018 NCAA finals, 0-0 after 2 minutes, 5-1 win over Suriano... 2019 Senior Nationals semis, down 2-1 to Arujau after 1:45, wins by 14-4 TF in sixth minute of match... 2019 Senior Nationals finals, vs Tomasello, up 5-0 after 2 minutes, wins 8-2... These were the rare windows when he was relatively healthy... He's had many matches where he was visibly hurting/gassed when he was out on the mat still recovering from major surgery or illness, this has happened repeatedly and it's obvious that he's gutting it out at far less than full strength... Furthermore, that's exacerbated because he wrestles so much harder than anyone else from the whistle ... no circling around for 3 minutes killing time and faking a couple of shots for him ... I hardly think that shows up on the negative side of his ledger ... it would be nice to see more wrestlers walk off the mat tired after not saving energy the whole match but rather having gone at it as hard as he does... ...

... while I enjoyed the interesting flashbacks to junior greco matches from the aughts, I wanted to give a thought about the topic question ... ... And with reference to the other thread and the "GOAT" question. He's not a GOAT at anything - even PA high school. The injuries and illness have made that impossible. I think what Brands is saying is that when Lee isn't burdened by a major injury or illness, no one he's seen is better. Such as freshman year NCAA, 2019 senior nationals, the last few weeks. I don't think it's a ridiculous statement, if you view it in context -- obviously he hasn't had a chance to wrestle senior world tournaments. That's the injuries and illness. But when he's been able to wrestle freely, against the competition he's been able to wrestle, he's a force of nature. It reminds me a little of Sandy Koufax. Extraordinary injury problems, a pitcher's elbow is somewhat akin to a wrestler's knees. His 5 or 6 years before he retired, no one ever was better. But he wouldn't be a GOAT because he had half the wins of others in his category. The difference between him and Lee now is that Lee hasn't wrestled at worlds and shown his stuff there whereas Koufax had a 0.95 ERA in four World Series, two of which he was the MVP of.

I gave both in my post. Both were an "NCAA champ over 157 since the Brands Bros took over," which was the statement in question. Perry twice. Borschel of course couldn't have been more Brands - he went through the whole Va Tech ordeal with him. And Perry, in addition to meeting the definition in question, is a nice feather in the Brands coaching cap. A lengthy film was made about the hurdle he cleared between his 2-3 under Zalesky and his 1-1 under Brands -- particularly that first "1," a big upset over Hendricks.

Not better. False.

Which makes it even cooler when the guy who wrestles in front of full houses and who the TV network changes the schedule to cover is the one showing up at your competition.

He never claimed to be majoring in geography.

Yeah for sure. Related to that is him saying that he wrestles hard all match, every position, and says most don't. That's why he sometimes (particularly coming off injuries when he's not full strength) is called a "first period wrestler." He ain't conserving energy - he's getting after it.

This is great. At the 10:05 mark, Brands says that the Big Ten Network has taken to calling Iowa before matches to ask if Spencer is going to wrestle, promising confidentiality on the answer, so that if so, they would want to delay the start of the dual so when the preceding basketball or whatever game goes over, the wrestling broadcast doesn't miss the 125 match.

Ladies and gentlemen, 11 minutes with the great Spencer Lee. This goes about the length of half a dozen of his matches. Some thoughtful stuff in here. Most interesting revelation -- he is extremely engaged with other Iowa sports, roots for and talks to athletes in other sports to pick their brains and says he's attended events for every Iowa varsity team except rowing, "just because I don't really know how to go to a rowing event because I don't think we've have a river we go to, I've certainly watched them compete but I've never been to one.".

He is _____ strong.

He does spend more money than everyone else in the first period, in that most college wrestlers conserve energy in the long 3 minute period and he goes all out from the whistle. His being tired directly correlates with a typical 10+ point lead, which you can't get against a top ranked D1 wrestler without spending energy. So the strategy you mention is usually going to involve needing big points to win which i dont see happening by riding. Mueller tried that after massacring Rivera with his ride and even got a cradle locked up -- and never got close to turning Lee (in a match where Lee tore an ACL). He gave up a very quick count 2 NF today but wasn't in real danger. I actually do think there is one tiny chance to beat him, which is to pin him in a scrambling type situation, not off a regular ride. He got pinned off a takedown by Picc and then against Purdue was pretty close to getting deckedn after a throw. That's the only way I see him losing. No one can outscore him.

Nope

Agree with Vak, depends on who he gets Friday morning. He's probably a bigger favorite in the semi than the quarter. Which is why I've said that he prefers 125, where he should win a semi (assuming he's not a 4 or 5 seed) as opposed to 133, where he should lose a semi. Then although he has way worse odds (understatement) in the 125 final than the 133 semi, he's at least wrestling on Saturday night and he has some kind of chance if Lee blows all his knees and his shoulders and his elbows and his wrists out in that match or the night before. Or if they disqualify Lee for being a cyborg not a human. Watching his matches is becoming like watching the Terminator. He comes out, assesses the threat, makes a quick judgment about what to do, and then kills unmercifully. The Purdue match is no exception. It's like he got shot with a cannon and knocked down and then just got right back up and immediately killed the human interloper.

The predictions make it sound boring. Can't we bring DeSanto back for one match? He never even took a redshirt.

Skeletal.

Yep. Marion had him dead to rights at one point on a leg attack and Dake just muscled out with a ridiculous improvised bridge. And then he applied seven minutes worth of, um, how would one describe it? substantial force? brutality? to Molinaro (a somewhat muscular fellow himself) the next year.

I think I remember him talking about having cut a lot freshman and sophomore year and part of why he went to 165 his last year was to minimize cutting. This HOF article notes weight cut issues at 141 and 149 in a couple of places. https://nwhof.org/news/kyle-dake-s-journey-to-history-a-year-by-year-look

I'd be thrilled to have an reflexes or any memory left at all in my old guy brain, even if they only chased shiny objects like multiple weight class belts.

While this cart is a couple of months ahead of its horse, I'll bite on the question, which at first I thought was silly - Dake, of course, but the more I thought about it, even though I am still firmly Dake, you can make some interesting arguments for Lee. As I've argued in lots of these threads, I've got Dake as my best ever because no redshirt (won a title nine months after being a high school student), beat three different champs and a terrific wrestler (2x finalist, probably should have been 3x but for refs) in his finals, well in control of all his NCAA matches, went up a weight and went 3-0 against the defending and future Hodge winner, etc. Though I've never understood why the usual first argument people make is the 4 weight classes in 4 years. It's a nice nugget, but it's more trivia than substance; he won four championships against people who weighed the same, it's not like he made weight at 141 the day he beat Taylor. Lee has had several losses, including being pinned once, losing to Ronnie Bresser once, and getting outwrestled by Sebastian Rivera twice (and having Mueller take care of him before there could be a third meeting), and hasn't beaten competition as strong as Dake's in his finals. He's missed a ton of matches with injuries. The body of work isn't really comparable to Dake. But there are some notable intangibles. He's put together a terrific record, with what I do think is going to end up with 4 titles, by overcoming a ludicrous series of major injuries, surgeries, and illnesses -- the depth of which are totally unchartered territory in the four-timer club (maybe even the two-timer club, any historians with a view on this?). And in the limited windows when he's been fresh, he's been simply transcendent -- a comet lighting up huge crowds at NCAAs and Carver; always attacking; scoring, scoring, scoring; technically beautiful; insanely strong. He generates a buzz like no one else because he's got talent and skill like no one else. And he'll probably end up with three Hodges. I wouldn't put him as my top 4 timer over Dake but I've got him in kind of a special exciting anti-wuss club of his own.