dragit

Thanks to boconnell's point about the outcome not being in doubt. The clip on twitter shows a 1-0 final and doesn't show riding time nor does it convert the score to 2-0 after time runs out as they usually do. But watching it again, you can see "advantage time" over a minute in the background, so I assume that the kicks were gratuitous, it wouldn't have tied the match if he'd gotten out. I can't figure out how to edit on this site, if I could I'd modify the third dot point. But the basic point of my post is wholly unchanged -- this was a short emotional outburst at the end of a grinding match, and wasn't likely to cause an actual injury. We have seen that kind of general thing many times before, although this was on the worse end of that scale. But it's still nothing at all like the clips at the top of this thread -- completely different, qualitatively and quantitatively. Now, really this time, good night to all.

OK I know I said I was stopping but I claim an exemption -- this post came in before mine but I hadn't seen it. I don't disagree with Perry's point, but the Bratke tweet shows perfectly just how out of this universe the conduct that this thread is about was. The Iowa State match is: Two seconds of conduct (not an entire match by someone who has done the same thing before); By a desperate, exhausted wrestler at the buzzer (not a purposeful, fresh wrestler from the opening whistle); Designed to score a point to tie a big match (not to injure); Not resulting in injury, nor would you expect it to (compared to the injury to SDSU which was exactly what you would have expected). And we can all agree that the Iowa State clip is terrible and absolutely unacceptable.

It's been suggested that it's best to knock off, so I will, following a reality check and rereading the original post. I think (I'm twitter illiterate) that it included a tweet from a coach who was so bothered by the Friday match that he retweeted a clip of it and added a clip from a match from earlier in the season (Scuffle?) with the same wrestler. The earlier clip showed the wrestler in question twice using an overhook/whizzer which appeared to be applied at the elbow, not the armpit, and which appeared to, unsurprisingly, and as one can reasonably infer was intended, injure the elbow. The clip from the Friday match was longer, and, upon rewatching it, I realized, was so bizarre and unlike anything I have ever seen that, if not for the provided context, I might have thought was more likely a comedy skit designed to mock the sport than an actual college wrestling match between two legitimate division one programs. The behavior showed by a camera that doesn't blink is, to put it mildly, abnormal, and clearly designed to at first, violate the rules, and then, to injure. Which it did, it's been represented that his opponent was unable to wrestle his next match. The original poster also stated that his research showed that the wrestler in question had been DQ'ed from another tournament. The thread in response to this has produced people defending the conduct, engaging in relativism comparing it to other conduct, and generally attacking strong criticism of this categorically loathsome pattern of purposeful behavior. Having re-watched the clips this amazes me, but I've said my piece and can't see the point in lingering on this thread any longer and just hope to be able to start fresh on a different topic some other day. Good night all.

First of all, he didn't use the word, I did. Second of all, this is just an absurd post. For the third of fourth time: He shouldn't be on a college wrestling mat. I have no view at all regarding him as a college student or a functioning member of society. As far as wrestling goes, the strong word I used befits the extraordinary, extreme, and indefensible conduct in question which has happened on multiple occasions. You in many, unending posts since my question, regarding whether you're comfortable with him wrestling other college students, have continued to duck this simple question, refusing to say "yes," and essentially confirming my use of the word even as you ridicule it.

So instead of answering the question, you keep preening about the use of the word like you've won some kind of grammar contest. But apparently you didn't notice that the question I asked was essentially a synonym for the word -- are you comfortable putting him out on the mat with rule-abiding wrestlers whose efforts in the sport could be at risk of intentional injury? You didn't say yes, and by doing so confirmed my use of the word. Which wasn't about him as a person, but rather about him as a wrestler -- the context of the posts in this thread on this, um, wrestling board.

I have no idea about outside the mat, but as far as wrestling goes, you think this is going to work out? You're comfortable with him on the mat with kids who have put their lives into this whose safety is at risk? He came out from the outset of the match with full intent to do what he did. He's done this kind of thing before. No remorse evident -- the apology that should have been immediately issued -- where did I miss that? The suspension that should have been immediately announced -- where did I miss that?

Not much. I had typed in some language that was probably self-righteous (and mean) but I edited it out before I posted. What I said was just what I saw and what any neutral observer saw. Have we gotten to the point where we can't just speak plainly about what's plainly in front of our eyes? This wasn't an isolated mistake by an emotional, exhausted wrestler at the end of a grueling match. This was premeditated indefensible escalating conduct from the whistle. From someone with a documented history.

No, it was just a funny response, I'm sure GWN can explain if you didn't get it.

The problem here is the ref and the coach -- not so much the kid, who is an established bad apple and by the eye test probably irredeemable. That the referee and his coach would see that happening in front of their eyes and not firmly put a stop to it before his opponent was injured is indefensible and, in my opinion, both of them should be reviewed by their superiors to decide if it's appropriate for them to continue in positions of authority. It's pitiful as far as the referee goes because he's on the mat with them, a foot away from the completely inappropriate illegal moves, and it's the first duty of his job to ensure the wrestlers' safety. It's pitiful as far as the coach goes because this is not an isolated incident and there's no way he can claim he didn't know that this kid is a problem. Why in the hell did Hahn have to be the one to put a stop to it? Well anyway, true to his good character, he stepped in, and, true to his good character, he didn't beat the crap out of the kid and the other coach as I'm sure he wanted to.

There are several moving parts here. I don't think there was much of a cheer for Taylor in Carver. Nothing remotely like Steveson. Which makes sense. 1. Closer, big dual vs ended, not competitive dual. 2. College star vs someone who just won a gold medal for the good old USA. The times that the fans tend to give those types of ovations are at Big Tens and NCAAs. Which makes sense since they aren't home crowds cheering for one team to trounce the other in a head to head dual, and since it's the end of the season, a better place for a summation. I remember Taylor getting a big ovation from the crowd a few weeks later at Big Tens after he beat Moore again there, including from Iowa fans, it was pretty cool. The video is here, they cut it off after a few seconds but it's already starting and building before the tape ends. (This is actually just an excuse to watch the incredible Taylor move at the 6:00 mark, which triggered some of the fullest oohs and aahs I've ever heard at a match.)

This is the problem, though. The refs have shown, definitively, that they just won't do it. Period. And they're even getting worse (more inconsistent). That's why, unfortunately, the only way to address the issue is with a rule change.

Could help. People give Lee a hard time for a few times gassing. Way better to see him going hard from the whistle and getting tired than watching guys conserving energy. Your idea of 2-2-2 could capture some of the benefit of freestyle 3-3 with more aggressiveness and risk taking.

The best, most exciting wrestler in the country and a special 2x champ whose opponent forgot the game plan. Followed by very little action. Look, as someone who follows and loves the sport, I can find some good stuff in several of those other matches. But this product just isn't anywhere near what it should be. There is simply too much of top athletes just circling each other for 3 minutes at the beginning of every match. What is the point of the 3 minute first period? I'd rather watch 2 minutes of light sparring than 3 minutes of light sparring.

No one who isn't already an established, serious wrestling fan is going to have watched that dual on Friday and have thought there was exciting action and going to be looking forward to watching more wrestling. This is not a good way to grow interest. The refs have definitively shown they won't use the stalling tool to make a real difference. The only way to get more action will be thoughtful focus on rule change(s).

This is a ridiculous post. First is the complete difference between a coin flip and performance on the mat affecting scoring. Second is the fact that the pushout and shot clock were put in as a highly successful reform to the joke of the ball grab.

The big one is the pushout. They need to try it. No one can guarantee it will work, but it was very good in freestyle and it makes sense that it would help in folkstyle. The lack of action in neutral Friday, and generally in big college matches, is greatly holding back the sport. It's so bad that the rides are actually better to watch than neutral wrestling. And I wouldn't mind combining it with a shot clock when no Pointe scored.

Answer is, Yes, somewhat, And, Who cares? It works for him, he backs it up, and, from what I've seen anyway, it's not out of control.

I don't know anything about WWE but I wonder if Kerk could be a bigger star than Steveson. He's got a really strong physical presence and movie star looks. Steveson just doesn't strike me as filling up the camera, he's reserved without a lot of natural charisma. Or am I just wishing that he fails and comes back to competing instead of pretending to compete.

I had no expectation of anything different from the crowd and would have been very surprised by an ovation. The program and its fans strike me as ruthlessly focused on winning with no sentimentality. (I mean that descriptively, not pejoratively.)

Yep, completely understand, just substitute "clients" for "compliance officers." Anyway, everyone here should be glad you need the diversion.

Every time I read one of your gems like this, I think, "Why can't the people I work with be this thorough, engaging, and insightful?" And then I think, "I wonder if the people he works with ask why he goes through the motions with them while saving all his thoroughness, engagingness, and insightfulness for that gang of has-beens and ne'er do wells on that pathetic wrestling board?"

I would go with the fellow that has engendered so much discussion on the other threads tonight. There is something unique about watching Lee fire off the opening whistle and go as hard as he can as long as he can. I haven't seen O'Toole since the preseason exhibition. Through that match I'd probably have had him second, I love his balance and crispness. But I have seen a couple of comments like Vak's about him being a little flatter during this season than he was before.

And I do not disagree that senior level is going to be a big challenge, success not by any sense guaranteed. Looking forward to watching and fervently hoping that his knees give him a chance to take his best shot.

Obviously wrestling fans will all be very interested to see -- and their ultimate judgment of his career will be heavily influenced by -- how he does at the senior level when he gets a chance. He blew through the U.S. Open in 2019 and fate hasn't allowed him to wrestle there again since. Part of him not being able to have any senior matches in three years is due to "his decisions," which I am quite sure he will "feel good about" when his career is over; he has a strong personality, weighs information, makes decisions which he feels are right for him, and lives with them. Kind of like an adult.

... this is becoming ridiculous ... 2018 NCAA semis, third period, last minute pin of Tomasello... 2018 NCAA finals, 0-0 after 2 minutes, 5-1 win over Suriano... 2019 Senior Nationals semis, down 2-1 to Arujau after 1:45, wins by 14-4 TF in sixth minute of match... 2019 Senior Nationals finals, vs Tomasello, up 5-0 after 2 minutes, wins 8-2... These were the rare windows when he was relatively healthy... He's had many matches where he was visibly hurting/gassed when he was out on the mat still recovering from major surgery or illness, this has happened repeatedly and it's obvious that he's gutting it out at far less than full strength... Furthermore, that's exacerbated because he wrestles so much harder than anyone else from the whistle ... no circling around for 3 minutes killing time and faking a couple of shots for him ... I hardly think that shows up on the negative side of his ledger ... it would be nice to see more wrestlers walk off the mat tired after not saving energy the whole match but rather having gone at it as hard as he does... ...