scourge165

I think it's more of a 'he has it coming for telling people to not get vaccinated.' There were people who thought you were endangering others if you didn't get vaccinated. And that made sense... until the vaccine was actually available of maybe shortly after when we found out, you're MARGINALLY less likely to transmit if you have it(if that was even true) and by telling people not to get it, people were at a higher risk for death. I don't know, I don't care, a lot of people had strong opinions about Covid. I had opinions about Covid...but, again, no MD in front of my name and Covid is over. People did this with Jamie Foxx on a CRAZY level. Claiming he had to get the vaccine to make a movie and now he has a blood clot and he's had a aneurism as a result or whomever. Continuing to litigate something people didn't understand at the time...a couple years later is annoying enough. Bringing it up when a guy is battling for his life is... disgusting.

Yeah, he loves to be that guy. This has become such a...sickening aspect of Covid that...sadly, people won't let die. -I've seen so many people ask if Askren "got the jab," and now this guy. I continue to refuse to believe people like this are in any way normal/speak for the majority of "their side," anywhere but social media.

Yeah, I didn't know we were moving on, but... this ivermectin thing, it's weird. It's like...it's for parasites. Undercooked food or tropical fruit fresh off the tree...miracle drug. Zero efficacy in cancer and covid, but it became this line where if you were pro-ivermectin, you were a 'free thinker man,' because you trust THIS big pharma drug! And if you were smart and...realized Covid wasn't parasitic, you were... for the system!

No it wasn't, Gaines was the obnoxious one. She was insufferable and she's been insufferable. She threw Larry Nassar back at Biles and then for the last couple years, she's just done nothing other than say, 'a man was in the locker room and we tied and they gave Lia Thomas the 5th place trophy instead of me,' which is...what they do in every situation in which someone ties. She's like a bot. She's just...the same over and over. You could just take the same interview from the last 3 years and just replay it.

God I hate people(some people). I think on top of wishing our best to the Askren family, we can also...wish our worst to this POS. For the record, I don't recall Askren saying anything about the vaccine, but...I also don't care as he doesn't have the state initials for Maryland in front of his fckn name, so...I don't care what he says about vaccines.

Ok, so then fair to say you have Taylor behind Deiringer at 165? That you have Abas at 125? Starocci could be the only choice at 174 Your team would have to be 125-Abas 133-Jurgens 141-Stieber 149-Zain 157-Nolf/Dake 165-Dieringer/Dake 174-Starocci 184-Brooks 197-Cael HWT-Snyder If you're strictly going by number of titles to determine HWT, one would assume you're doing the same at every weight, right? And if you're saying Snyder 3 tips the scales toward hm over Stevenson, then Abas 4th tilts it toward him over Lee. 33-This would be tougher, but this would basically just be a spreadsheet team...

Oh...I did all of this yesterday and walked away and forgot to post it. But, lets break it down. Abas 144-4 Losses Freshmen year-3 (Duel Loss 4-3)Teague Moore DNP, 4th, 1st, 3rd Eric Jurgens-2X 11-8, 5-3OT in the QFs and for 3rd place Jurgens 3,3,1,1 Soph-1X Eric Guerrero -Lost a 4-3 Match going UP a weight class in a Duel. Guerrero 5,1,1,1 That's 4 losses to a combined 8 NCs, 15 AA(no lower than 5th and 1 year DNP) He avenged the loss to Moore in the QFs 3-3 TB -Jurgens went up to 133 the next 3 years -Guerrero was already up a weight and he had a National Champ at his weight Spencer Lee 98-6(6 MFF that now count as losses, but...didn't at the time, so not fair to use it against him). Losses Freshmen-2 Ronnie Bresser (3-1) DNP, DNP, 7th, 8th Nathan Tomassello(2-1) 1,3,3,3 Sophomore-3 Sebastian Rivera(7-2) 6,3,4,3 Nick Piccininni(Fall 4:33) 4, DNP, 5, DNP Sebastian Rivera (6-4 OT) Sr-1 Matt Ramos-(Fall 6:59) DNP, 2nd, DNP, 4th That's 6 losses to 5 Wrestlers with a combined 1 NC, 18 AAs 6 DNPs There's a big more to it than that obviously...but that's one helluva career. You're really picking a style here. I think Abas could take Lee down multiple times. I think it's likely Lee could turn Abas. Healthy Lee vs Healthy Abas is a contrast in styles and...I think Abas wins 55 out of 100 matches. I don't think it's a blowout and if you think it'd be Lee, 60 or 70 out of 100, cool. He's good enough, you could make the argument. But Abas is one of the greats IMO(not that Lee isn't)...it's just more dominant the rest of his career. He's 145-3 if he doesn't bump up and lose a 4-3 match to ANOTHER guy who was a 3X National Champ. But you have 46 more wins, 3 fewer losses, no MFFs, he finished EVERY tournament he entered, and they both won 3 titles. 6th, 4th...not a huge difference. What Lee does from here on out won't change my mind...Abas taking a Silver didn't factor in. I also had Abas as one of my top 10-15 all-time, so...I've just been a bigger fan of him than most.

I can't for the life of me understand how you're NOT putting Gable over Snyder(I can, I just want to pretend like this is such a big gap that I need to exaggerate it). Gable may not have Snyder's quickness(but it's not that big of a gap) but he's got 40 pound on him. NOBODY is questioning this if Gable doesn't have one of the biggest upsets of all-time(maybe the biggest upset) this year. Then he'd just have lost to Cessar as a Freshmen and rolled the next 3 years beating some...big time studs. And while Snyder did the same...he did it at a much lighter weight though...obviously same weight class.

Are you just going off this thread or elsewhere? I hope that's not true. The lungs can be very resilient.... but a guy like him with a gas tank like it was plugged right into the Alaskan pipeline, that'd HAVE to be frustrating.

Yeah...no, I think that's a fine idea. I remember when my Cousin entered a women's Wrestling event like 20 years ago there were only about 40 in the whole state. Now, we know it's significantly more popular.

I don't think that's a stupid idea at all. I think it's still too small of a number to have any meaningful number or worth the expense to have a 3rd division...BUT, sure. I'd be for that. I do tend to believe(despite studies that disprove this to be fair) there's a bit of a social contagion right now. There's always been trans people. I believe that, I believe they "have the right to exist," which what you always hear. That's all they're asking for. I'm also a big dubious that we've seen a 6 fold increase in the number of people who are truly trans in a decade, but maybe that's just because it's such a foreign concept to me. But sure, what the hell. A 3rd division would make it by far the easiest and fairest. So maybe that's as equitable as we can make it. That would solve your inclusivity. You'd have all types of issues with Trans-men taking testosterone and trans-women taking HRT and whatever, but...it'd be easier.

I mean, I'm just going off the studies I've seen. Mostly conducted by the military. There's a sizeable gap 2 years in. There are some area's in which the difference is less significant, but it's still there. This is what I'm going off of. To me the biggest difference is... DSD is not a choice. Transitioning is. I don't mean to sound cruel, but life isn't always fair. If additional testing comes out and it says after 10 years of transitioning...there's no difference physically, then my opinion will change with additional information... which should be the default, the problem is just as you have a few posts up, someone "said '8 pages in but only one SIDE is overblowing the issue." If you're coming in with a "side" already, you're not likely to change your opinion. Yes, I think it was incredibly unfair how she was treated and...there's not much more to say about that...and again, the fact that people ONLY talk about one of the two athletes tells me something. It wasn't just about DSD. I'd say the standard there should be normal testing levels. If you're DSD and you have...say internal testes, then you need to take something to get your Testosterone down to normal levels(for elite level athletes). I think I'd pointed this out before, but people born DSD is 1 in 20,000. Among Olympic level athletes, it's about 1 in 100. So that'd be me initial take. You have to test within these limits, but I'm hardly an authority.

I would hope, but I'm entirely unqualified to answer that. It could be that, it could be that it's more serious and you want him nearer to Family and Friends. If what the post from the AWA athlete is true, it could be both. He's stable enough, but he's in rough shape. I'm just going to choose to not believe anything I don't hear from a reputable source and try and be positive. Even people who may be...put off by his brash personality have to see what he's done for the kids he coaches and what he brings to the sport. He's made the sport better and I've never heard a kid who Wrestles for him say anything but positive things about him. His entire ideology is good for the sport. The lack of cutting weight, the emphasis on having fun...we all credit PSU with doing that, Askren did some goofy stuff in HS. Leap frog when warming up with all the guys in the finals(or a lot of them, I don't remember). I think he carried a brief case and a chicken around(A stuffed Chicken). I think the Briefcase meant he was there to "take care of business," and the Chicken...I don't know. He's just unique. I think he had several guys from AWA at 165 the last couple years like...O'Toole, Mesenbrink, Scoles(he's a stud), Mulvanney(not spelling that right, but ANOTHER Hartland kid). Not sure if the Bianchi brothers wrestled at AWA, but this is just ONE weight class. I saw how the Robbie Lawler fight went. I wouldn't count him out. The only thing I can say with any confidence is he's not gonna tap and he's gonna keep on fighting.

Edit-After listening to what Cormier said, he's not downplaying it, I just read it that way. He says back home in Wisconsin. That's accurate. I should have listened before posting. Nothing misleading at all(which is why I deleted that). My bad.

They're literal gangster's involved. They've bribed people, fixed fights...they're corrupt as hell. You think they care about being held "liable" in international court? And they could have just released the testing results. I don't care about the IBA. And again, I find it confusing that with all this prior knowledge of Khelif, we ONLY talked about her, the boxer who comes from the Country it's literally illegal to be transgender.

But we do have a LOT of research into this. We know how when you're born biologically male and you go through puberty and you transition, you have greater bone density, more muscle mass, you have a stronger cardiovascular system, lungs meaning more endurance, speed. The difference between Men and Women is...pretty well documented, even after years of HRT. DSD...I am too ignorant to speak on with any authority. I see it as being inherently unfair to just ban women for being born with DSD and insofar as I'm aware, Imane Khelif tested inside normal parameters for women in the latest Olympics...as did Yu-Ting(who....oddly hasn't been brought up, but she won a Gold as well).

Sure. People started talking about it when the Italian Fight quit in the first Rd of the Olympic. That's when people started talking about it. Unless you mean literally anyone in which case...I'm sure some people were. I would bet money nobody on this forum brought either her nor the other boxer with DSD up prior to these Olympics... and I'd bet nobody recalls the other boxers name...which is why I'm skeptical of the "people were saying," claim from before the Olympics. And to be clear, in American nomenclature, I take "people were talking about," to mean...it was a widespread controversy in this case or just point of discussion in other cases. "People were talking about Spencer Lee's knee before the NCAAs." Lots of people were aware and talking about that issue. I don't believe a lot of people were talking about two boxers who hadn't won a World and hadn't medaled in the Olympics prior to this past Olympics. And the reason I believe that...we're STILL only talking about the one of them. The one who lost her first match at the World Championships her first time there. The one who is SO overpowering that the Italian had to quit immediately...but in ~50 career bouts she had 6 KOs? I'm...a bit skeptical of that claim.

1-I agree, it's... VERY confusing to me. I would hate to be the person to make the decision about a Caster Semenya or the handful of athletes who...present as women, are raised as women and then they have this little biological abnormality and they're treated...just brutally. 2-The laws that were being talked about, namely the one in on Ohio is...so over the top and easily abused, I can't believe it was passed by the Ohio State Congress(of course the last minute, attached to another bill). 3-I do feel differently on the topic of trans athletes. We already have the science in on that. It's not the same. Transitioning to become a different sex, that's going to come with I guess some positives for the person and some negatives and the negative is just going to have to be that trans-women...do not get to compete in High School or College(I'd add pro athletics, but at that point, I guess let the league decide). But we know the bone density, the muscle mass...that's where I differ. DSD is different, it's nuanced and I don't pretend to have the information to make an informed declaration of what is fair and what isn't... but I THINK I do when it comes to a trans-women. Lia Thomas wouldn't be able to compete with women now. I think that's the right decision. If you're a great athlete and you're just competing because you love the sport... do it in Men's swimming. That's an area where I don't prioritize the feelings of the few over what I think is fair for everyone. It sucks, but I think it sucks more for the women who would have been a National Champion or All American if not for Thomas, who was a mediocre Male Swimmer two years(not even). I also don't think it's fair to the teams in Minnesota. Any baseball fan knows how important starting pitching is. You have an ace, you are in every game. Imagine being able to pitch Randy Johnson 5 straight games in Gm7 of the NLCS and then the next 4 games of the World Series? That's what happened in Minnesota. A Trans pitcher was just able to pitch 5 straight games. She put up an INCREDIBLE line of 35 innings pitched, just 1 earned run, stellar ERA (~0.20), 27 strikeouts That's where I just don't think it's a...pretty easy line to cut off. I don't know if people remember John McEnroe talking about Serena Williams being the greatest WOMEN'S Tennis player of all-time and people complaining he had to qualify it. Well...Williams herself said she'd lose 6-0, 6-0 in two sets in about 10 minutes to Andy Roderick. We are built differently and I don't think you can off-set that. I also get how people will say there are always people who are built differently. So that's where I'd make the cut...were it up to me...and then allow for science of sports to determine how to address people born with DSD.

Yes, and...if you know about the IBA, you know the IOC cut ties with them due to their corruption well before that; The IBA was a corrupt, Russian based..."Agency" by this point that had committed extortion, gambling, fixing fights and ties to organized crime(so said the United States Treasury in 2019). I BELIEVE all they did was test the fights testosterone levels and then extrapolate from there.

Yeah, it's not that hard to understand other cultures. They rape little boys there when there aren't women around or...just as a form of humiliation. American Slave owners used to do that in the United States. They'd take the biggest slave, tie him up and rape him in front of everyone else...just to take that fight out of him. Yet...somehow they weren't viewed as homosexuals. Maybe you could make an ATTEMPT to understand those cultures. The lack of a prosecution and ignoring is a BIG different than taking a person who you KNOW is part of the LGBT community and putting them on the WORLD STAGE so as they can represent you're Nation. Do ya think Afghanistan would do that with a gay man? Maybe lets not conflate only SOMETIMES putting the people we're talking about to DEATH with making a point to elevate them to the World Stage while they wear your Countries Flag. Sorry if that went over your head.

No, she was not. She was NEVER banned by the IOC...at any point. At least that I'm aware of. But you're claiming you and others talking about this were aware of the situation before the Olympics, so if you could show me when the IOC banned her, I'd be very interested in reading that.

No, I don't see that happening on a thread like this... I'm sorry, what were you saying about nonsensical arguments making it impossible to respond to? Lets compare the veracity of Pashtun Men abusing younger Boys and a Country that has laws against Trans people having a Trans-women Represent them on the World Stage at the Olympics? And you thought this would become a topic about whataboutism to rationalize any argument!

I don't think anyone said you "can't ask what's fair." I think that's EXACTLY what we're talking about and may be more useful without the morons like Scout(who just happens to have the PERFECT personal anecdote from last night...while this topic was going by the way) just yelling over the conversation by calling her a man. I have no clue what's "fair" for people like that. I think in order to be qualified to answer that question, you'd have to have a MUCH better understanding of this topic than I have. I know it can't just be 'they're stronger.' Most great athletes are born physically superior. I can say if you're born male, you can't compete in the women's events. That it as far as I'm confident in commenting insofar as what I know or believe to be "fair." At least fair to the most number of people. I'm also incredibly skeptical that anyone on here was talking about an average Albanian fighter BEFORE the Olympics.

What MORE would you like me to say about Lia Thomas that I haven't made...ABUNDANTLY clear regarding my opinion on here? Never said 'Yeah but it's only one race.' Didn't say 'yeah, but it's rare.'

I'm just tired of Gaines and her grifting. I mean, good for her, she's turned tying for 5th place and getting mailed the medal and making a couple million dollars a year to just say the SAME things over and over and go on bad debate shows. I'm not even sure what we're talking about at this point. Are we talking about the nuance of women who may be DSD or have higher levels of T(which is not that for elite women athletes). Or "someone that was a dude last week, competing against the women this week has nothing to do with any person?" Either way...enough of Riley Gaines. We can have his discussion without Gaines.