scourge165

Humphrey's deserves it... I lost a pool on him "losing" to Austin O'Connor. I had Haines winning it, Humphrey taking 2nd and O'Connor taking 3rd. I think it was the semi's, but Humphrey's was down 5-4...IIRC, but that could have been two years earlier as they were in the exact same scenario twice. Either way, down 1, needs the escape. He kicks out at about 2 seconds, he's on the mat rolling, 5 feet between him and O'Connor, starts to come up to his feet, clock hits zero as the ref calls time and...they said no loss of control. This one still bugs me;

I have a coach who used to make a joke about this. He'd say, "nobody gives a -____ about a State Champ at 103 or 106....they still have to fear for their life when they walk into a bar." Hard to argue! And they're ALWAYS the guys starting the fights! (This doesn't include the likes of Tommy Rowlands who started off at 103 and then Wrestled HWT...).

@AgaveMaria I mentioned him. That was just old school when guys didn't start wrestling until HS and impossible to compare these guys to modern Wrestlers. He did have that Gymnastics background, so...that's like a cheat code for Wrestling, but still, to go from a mediocre or even below average varsity Wrestler up until his Sr year. Then a good, not great Wrestler, THEN...State Tournament process and he doesn't lose the rest of the way...for the first, 2nd and 3rd tournament he's won... Then UCLA...decent again but nothing special. And then DOMINANT 3 Titles.

Yeah, THAT is nuts. 4th best? We're putting Hendrickson above Snyder? I don't see a world in which that's realistic.

-Cael -Kemp -Taylor/Askren -Mark Hall? This is impossible. Gable, Snyder and Abas are close for 3X IMO...and others. Schultz bumped up and stopped the first 4X Champ. Best two-time champs. Askren, Taylor, Neal and Tommy Rowlands Best One-Time Champ...can I put Churella in here(Hendricks was SO close to being pinned)...but that's such a looong list. There have been so many great Wrestlers who have come along and been in the toughest weight classes and "only" won one title. ----- I can't put guys like Gable in there. Guys from that era. It's just too different. Not to say others shouldn't or that Uetake isn't the...best 3X or best ever, I just didn't see them, see video and the style was so different.

LOL...there's a reason he's on ignore!

Just...add that in '24 he also beat Shane Griffiths.. How many NCs did those guys have collectively? Oliver in that infamous match with Stieber, he had 2 I believe. Smith-I don't think any had won one. Yianni-None Brooks 1 in Parker Keckeisen Dake-1 (St. John won one after, but we've determined we won't count MeEnelly or Ferrari's future accomplishments so doesn't count). Cael-None Starocci-Griffith, Lewis 2X, Keck once, a chance at 2X. I mean, of course they're all clutch, they all won 4. Just one of them gets dragged a bit more than the others.

I'm not sure why we're just not counting his 6th year but we're counting Yianni's 6th year. We're just ceding that point. I think it's also worth mentioning Yianni was beaten pretty soundly his 6th year in College. And then the level of competition is also relevant. 9 of Yianni's last 15 matches at the NCAAs were vs...B10 Wrestlers. His NCAA Finals opponent his last 3 years? All vs the B10. His Quarters, Semis and Finals the last 2 years for that matter. I'm thinking there's a change he takes another loss to a B10 Wrestler if he has to go through a duel season and a B1G Tourney... What year was Spencer in when Ramos pinned him his Mother turned a nice pair of classes into two monocles? So we're not counting the 6th year...except for the guys it does count...but what do YOU think is going to happen is Keck or McEnlly beats him? Do you still think people won't count this year? LOL...course not, that'll be used as the reason he doesn't belong in the 4X Conversation. Heck, Callaveria was bemoaning his last of bonus points and at that point...he'd had bonus in every match BUT 1. Even using the "low" Bonus rate, it's pretty similar to Yianni's. And again, little bit different schedule. But similar. There's also the fact that Yianni was REAL close to going down one round before Lee in the NCAAs vs Murin, but, he didn't. It's just proving my point(not you BAC, the general argument). You can take the same thing and it's a check FOR Yianni or Dake or whoever and it's a check AGAINST Starocci. Yianni took a loss to Gomez as a Sr. He didn't have to wrestle a B1G schedule...except for the NCAA in which he wrestled B1G guys in the quarters, semis, finals. Starocci doesn't major a guy, there's a thread about Cstall. It's kinda silly. Throw him where you want to throw him...but his accomplishments are pretty impeccable. And we'll see how the 5th Title Chase goes...and if it doesn't count in the end!

Who are you arguing with? I never said it wasn't(though...I think you could argue beating back to back 4X AA and two NC on a bad knee is comparable)...but look at what I said. Dake wins by a point and he DOMIANTED Taylor. He won 3-2 and 5-4. Starocci goes out there, obviously injured and it's used against him because he didn't have the same bonus rate. It's...absurd. And again, both Griffith and Lewis don't get the respect they deserve. Griffith was the #1 seed and undefeated in 2020, won a NC, lost a 6-5 match to Keegan O'toole in the finals. He beat Lewis. If he wins this year, he'll have beaten Keck. And the #1 complaint is the bonus rate or how he does it...and he does it VERY similar to how Dake did it. He doesn't ride as hard as Dake but I think that's because he's better on his feet and he doesn't need to...and when he does, he rides out the best in the Country. I think people are just searching for reasons why Dake Wrestling relatively boring matches with incredible defense, he was tough on top(better on top, but both were elite) and Taylor was better on his fee offensively(though again...both were great). Carter Starocci has one stud standing in his way(either Keck or McEnelly) away from being a 5x Individual Champ and a 5X team champ and the MAJORITY of the posts on this board are trashing him. A thread longer than this one about why he didn't beat Ferrari worse than he did. And i do think time is going to look back on him more favorably. I think if he's not wrestling Welsch would be at 184, you'd have Barr at '84, McEnelly would be looking to start his quest for 4 or Keck his 5th time in the top 3 and 2nd title and the most nit picky stuff is used against him. Even his W/L %. He's behind Cael and maybe Yianni and that's it if you're going off the official scoring from before last year. But we don't do that. Anyway, I'm about rung out on my Carter Starocci crusade. I'm not a PSU fan and I don't know the kid. I just don't agree with the genera lsentiment.

What is this word you speak of? Byrd? Byrd is the word? https://youtu.be/2WNrx2jq184?list=TLPQMTgwMzIwMjWzjIlCKLjyAQ

Lucas Byrd? Can I ask why HE is catching strays? I like Byrd(and...I have no good reason, I said it at the start of the season, I was rooting for him)? Just a weird guy to start taking shots at. This is 'she was mine first,' situation or...?

Yeah, I AM a huge Kyle Snyder fan, but whatever advantage he had in quickness and foot speed(IF he had one) Gable more than makes up for with the 40-50 pounds...and I'm not sure Stevenson doesn't have quicker feet.

That's fair... I can't speak about Pat Smith as I didn't see him. I can look back at what...Kemp did(that referees decision from a 4X NC) and Banach, Mcllravy(If I ranked the 4X Champs and included Lincoln, he wouldn't be last in my book). Uetake and those guys, it's a different sport almost. You can say Uetake is the best ever and be right, but he basically wrestled a different sport...but absolutely deserves to be recognized as an All-Time Great. So I'm just going with the Cael on forward guys. I would put Cael first, I think Brooks is my #2. I think winning it at those weights is just a little tougher as a Freshmen than at '33/'41. That's splitting hairs. The Starocci issue is..it's just illogical to me. Dake seems to be so far ahead and Starocci gets knocked down and I just don't get it. And then people try and tweak it. Use the same W/L for everyone and Starr is 98-2 and on his way to being 102-2 with losses to Kemerer and then his first duel, someone he's beaten numerous times since(Yianni gets points for that from the Cornell crowd). We go back and guess how he'd have done as a Freshmen. I think we've seen he tends to come out with the W in the NCAAs. So for me it's 1-Cael, 2-Brooks, 3/4-Dake/Starocci, 5/6-Stieber and Yianni are tough to separate. But as I said before, I would probably have some 3X Champs(maybe even 2X Champs) who I'd have ahead of a few 4X Champs. I just find the lack of respect for Starocci...silly. And I'm NOT a PSU fan. I'm just a fan in general. I'd pay money to see an Askren vs Starocci match though. That'd be...interesting.

It almost seems MORE geared toward Starocci than anyone else IMO... They just didn't. The NCAA didn't count RS Freshmen records and they didn't count MFFs...until they did. That is why Cael is an undefeated 4X Champ.

Yeah, I'm really not. I just think there is a TON of hypocrisy on this board. His nickname is "CStall" and he gets crushed for...winning pretty much the same way that Dake won. TD and riding people out and not giving anything up. He beat Taylor 3-2 and 5-4 and someone said he "absolutely dominated" him. Starocci beats 4X AAs and NCs doing the same and it's someone a check against him. Taylor had been outstanding. And Shane Griffith was undefeated going into the NCAAs in 2020, won it the following year. Was a runner up to O'Toole, losing a 6-5 match and his last year lost to Staroci. Lewis was a champ, would have been a multiple time champ if not for Starocci. You're talking about how impressive an All-Star Matchup is. I think Maple's credentials vs Keckisen's are relevant. Ok...Stieber also took a loss his SR year to a Freshmen. There are a check's for each...yet somehow Starocci is the least impressive... Yeah...that was interesting. It doesn't really move the needle for me much though. Just because the Starocci-Keck match was going to happen(probably) at the NCAAs anyway...I don't think it makes it less impressive he took the challenge. Ok...1-I really thought a "chalk" against you was meant to be a check so I just ignored the first several times, but...ok, we'll go with chalk. When did he even have the chance to Wrestle Ferrari? Ferrari wouldn't even Wrestle Stephen Little. You're acting like Starocci ducked Ferrari. There are a lot of bad reasons...this may be the worst. Starroci never asked him to Wrestle at 184...and it's funny that Ferrari just missed weight vs every good opponent but making weight the rest of the time.

He beat him 3-2 and 5-4... Yeah, just

Riiiight...would have been hard for Kemerer to win it that year as it WASN'T WRESTLED, though he WAS the highest seeded Wrestler in that tournament who didn't wrestle for Penn State. But alright. The Line of Demarcation is True Freshmen or not So Group A-Smith, Dake, Yiannis Group B-Cael, Stieber, Brooks(though, he was the #2 seed and didn't get a chance) and Starocci I don't think that's a very good line, but sure. If that's the standard, we'll go by that standard. Not...'he tweeted mean things to poor AJ Ferrari.' I'll be honest, I think I'll likely end up putting multiple Wrestlers without 4 Titles(but from the era you could wrestle 4 years) in my top 10 and ahead of some 4X Champs, but now that the list is trimmed to Smith(who did end up taking a RS), Dake and Yianni(who was out for 2 years) how does the order go?

Kendrick Maple didn't AA as a True Freshmen. Maple took a 4th after a RS(this is the year there was the controversial call with Oliver and Stieber). Maple then won it at 141 Finally, he took an 8th at 149. So Maple NQ/4th/1st/8th, Keckiesen 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st I think beating Keckeisen was more impressive than Maple at the All-Star Duel. I don't know how the Ferrari back and forth online plays into this. They both ran their mouths, but I think we're getting closer to the real reason for the lack of respect for Starocci. People just don't like him. That's fine. The comments about winning the UFC because a D2 Wrestler was the current champ and something about how that's "beginners stuff," was obnoxious. Ferrari ducked everyone all season long suggests to me that match wasn't happening anyway, but with as confident as he was, why not take the offer? He wanted no part of Starocci. So...I do't think the All-Star Classic is a chack against Starr. I think Keckiesen benefits from Wrestling him a first time moreso than Starocci.

Nobody has to "give" him anything...he beat Kemerer the next year. The #1 Wrestler at his weight was his practice partner. He took a 3rd and a 4th before 2019 injury and then 2020 and a 2nd and a 4th after with a loss to Starocci in in the finals and then a loss to Hidlay in the quarters who then lost to Starocci 10-3 in the Semis. I'm not assuming anything. You can only go by what they did. Dake knew he was wrestling that year and he jumped levels that off-season(as Koll and Grey spoke about)... If you're deducting points for RS vs True Freshmen, you're doing so with Cael and...Stieber, Brooks, Starocci and then Smith, Yianni, Smith winning it along with Dake. But again, Cael had a NC ahead of him(I'm assuming he's at 177 and not 184 as his True Fresh year was when they changed the rules) as well. It's impossible to know...but you can make an educated guess.

Parker Keckisen isn't exactly a slouch. He's a 2X Champ if not for Brooks. He's been stuck in a loaded weight class with a Hidlay, a Olympic Bronze in Amine and Brooks. I'm not sure that's a whole lot different than Dake-Taylor when Dake won it(and you can't count future performance, so if Ferrari, Welsh and McEnelly end up winning 7 titles combined it's immaterial...unless one comes this year from McEenally of course! And Banach lost to one of the Schultz brothers(Mark moving up to 177). I really don't see much of a different from Starocci moving up to 184 and Dake to 165. Dake was going to Wrestle 163 at the next level(he'd already wrestled it). Well...my guess is if Dake had a guy who'd gone 1/2/2/(likely 1) in front of him, he'd have taken a greyshirt. He was a 19 year old when he won his title. Starocci had just turned 20. But if you're going by NC beat, he beat David Taylor. Taylor had won 1 NC. Did Dake beat any other NCs? Starocci has beaten 4 I believe? Griffith, Lewis, Keckiesen and....maybe that was it or maybe I'm forgetting someone. Quite a few guys who were dominant and had several top 5 finishes. But you sound like you're describing Starocci. Hasn't lost a match since he lost to Kemerer in the B1Gs and his only other loss was his first duel vs Donnell Washington. He's been pretty much just a flat-out winner the last 4 years as well...including on a bad knee last year in a loaded weight where he had the tough draw... Dake lost to Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey, Donnie Vinson and Kevin LeValley as a Soph. https://444wrestling.com/kyle-dakes-college-wrestling-career-results/ https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/56712/foca-chris/profile#google_vignette I would not argue Dake is "right up there," what I would disagree is that Starocci isn't.

Yeah, but then you look at Mekhi Lewis and Starocci. Both had pretty significant injuries. Starr was able to fight through it and win a title. Exactly. It's just...strange to me. For all intents and purposes, he's 98-2 in his career, 4X Champ, losses his first duel meet as a Freshmen and then in the B1Gs to Kemerer who was top 4, 4 Times. Lewis was Lewis was top 4 4X with a NC and the #1 seed when HE was injured...otherwise he's likely a champ. Shane Griffith was undefeated in 2020 and then went 1, 2, 5, 3 Hayden Hidlay, another guy he stopped. 2, 4, 3, 5. Foca, Labriola...what do you want from the guy? I'm not seeing the distinguishing traits that Smith, Stieber, Brooks, Dake or Yianni had over him. -Edit-I agree though, I don't think people appreciate his greatness. I'm not all that invested in "ranking" them...though I'd have Cael and Brooks at #1 and #2 if I'm leaving Starocci out of it. Maybe Smith for being the first. It's REALLY thin margins, but how they finish their careers is important so Stieber and Yianni both took losses. Cael dominated all the way through. Dake beating Taylor puts him above the bottom, but I'm not sure how far up.

Lets use the same criteria for Starocci that the others had. That's 2 losses. He moves up to...98-2. So then he's behind I believe just Cael and maybe Yianni. He also wrestled 5 years of a B10 schedule. I think he deserves a little credit for that. I don't know what "top Quartile count" means though.

Yeah, he took a RS because Mark Hall was still at '74 and the strong favorite to win it. The 4 different weights doesn't do much for me and all the things Starocci gets nailed for, Dake did. Close matches...I'm actually curious what each bonus rate was(Dake's in particular). They both have 4 losses with two of them being MFF for Star which wouldn't have counted for Dake. And obviously Starocci had a free covid year or he'd be done. But Cael took a RS. I don't see people hold that against him.

My guess is he probably goes 177 with those rules and he's Wrestling Mitch Clark(if he can make it that far)... Guessing who wins that is next to impossible.

I'm not trying to take ANYTHING away from Dake. I'm just pointing out...I feel like one gets a pass for a conservative style of wrestling and the other gets crushed for it... This match here is a great example. He gives up the only TD. He's in a 3 point stance for much of it. I don't know why Humphrey cuts him with ~14 seconds left in the period, but he doesn't really put up a fight, just lets him go. And Dake wins a 3-2 match. He did it as a Freshmen, 4 Titles, it all speaks for itself, but with Starocci, he majors everyone this year and then Ferrari Wrestlers in a similar style, losses 3-1 and you have people starting threads about how this is why they're "pre-emptively" pointing this out to keep him off the "Mt Rushmore" of College Wrestling.