scourge165

There is. Because he had the money to put up "Schools," in area's that were hurting for Club Wrestling and he has former D1 Wrestlers coaching at those schools. Max Askren, Josh Wagner, Messenbrink, Pell... Wisconsin's big problem was never a lack of talent, it was developing it. Minnesota had a lot of clubs in or around the Twin Cities and the best athletes could compete. Then, guys went and had success, came back and coached. More clubs where the top athletes can train together, more D1 Wrestlers, more Quality coaches. But their talent was located where the highest concentration of Wrestlers were(makes sense). That wasn't really the case for Wisconsin. Nicolet or West Bend West or a lot of these HS producing elite Wrestlers, they had no programs and it was a looong ride to a decent club. I think if Ben left AWA, it would continue to churn out elite Wrestlers. You'll also notice his clubs are in areas where there is a lot of money. It's not cheap, but...you're getting Max Askren or Nick Becker will come out and do some clubs. Again, the others I mentioned. Wisconsin was more spread out. AWA has certainly filled that need with the different locations. It also helps having College Coaches willing to do some of the camps. So instead of there being clubs near Kaukauna and then Rapids and then up by the Crass Brothers(which all still exist) there are 6 more across the Southern part of the State.

Yeah, but this is not real consistent on his behalf. I whole heartedly agree with this ideology. I think you should play multiple sports...at least as a kid. I played on a travel baseball team that played 70 games a season and was lucky to have a coach who'd let me miss some games for Fargo or Northern Plains and I could still get to some off-season practices around Baseball. And then Wrestling was fresh. It wasn't just going from the season into Freestyle and Greco and just continually grinding. And I'd also fit a tournament or two in-between Baseball and Football. Wasn't until I got older I realized how expensive this was and how lucky I was...and also probably not absolutely necessary, but the point is, I enjoyed all of them and it kept me pretty busy. Hell, I even went out for Tennis as a Jr and Sr(initially just to serve a sports suspension, but then I actually liked it). I started Wrestling at 4-5 years old, but never had that Dad who put pressure on me. Tournaments were kinda just, "hey, you wanna Wrestle this weekend?" This is an area in which I respect Askren's outward ideology, but...again, it doesn't really fit with his coaching style for his top kids. When he gets an real stud, he'll push that kid to focus on Wrestling and push them away from other sports.

I think if he'd have gotten the job, UW would probably be competing with Iowa right now. But he'd end up feuding with the University or...something. Askren and Messenbrink are both College caliber coaches(though, if he was the HC, you'd want one of them to run AWA and I think Messenbrink is the true genius behind that).

What the hell? I swore I replied to this. Anyway, no, I'm talking about Paniro Johnson at 141. How big of an upset would it be if he dropped to 141 and won it there? Huh? No, obviously I screwed up. Which is bad given what the kid has done this year. Taking it to Gomez pretty good, losing a SV 3-1 match to Yianni. He's got some other good wins and some tough, close losses. I'll go with Jack there. That NC State team is looking good. Next year moreso than this year is going to be their best year with that whole lineup back, but Jack at 41, Scott at 57 and Trumble at 97 could all cause some havoc. I'd take Scott out due to the drubbing he took at the hands of Andonian, but that feels a lot like Vito-Glory last year. Andonian just blitzed him with the throw to and 6 right out of the gate, then the cradle. If Andonian can get that gas tank all the way back, he's gonna be a real threat at '57. Monster on top, obviously can hit he big moves, but he's also so slick. He hit a TD over Scott where it was like a schuck from an overhook. But I don't think that qualifies as an upset. Also, Hart might be the type of guy who can make a run. He's tough on top. He's just not real explosive and he doesn't seem like he's got that shot that he can score with in the 3rd or OT vs the better Wrestlers. So his matches would have to follow a similar theme. Winning with RT and defense and that usually bites you in the ass at some point. Anyway, my bad. I'll go with

Jimmy Johns...man, I love that shit. My buddy opened one and wanted me to go in on it with him. Maybe I should have...he's done great and I'd have made my money back just by eating that #4 I think? #8? Whatever has the salami, ham and whatever else. And that bread is SO good!

They can wrestle on the boys team during the regular season though, correct? I just watched a state finals that had it at the same time as the boys for the first time ever. I disliked it. Went from 3 mats to 6 and it was even tougher to keep track of either. I was also at a State Tourney with just the One match and 1 Division. That was much more engaging. I don't think there's anything to be done, but a better system. They didn't have a big board with the matchups as they'd had in the past. No clue why that was. And they didn't announce things like National Rankins(also done in the past). So fix those things, and not sure what else you can do. Not fair to have the girls Wrestle two weeks later in front of 2000 people. Girls/Women's wrestling is evolving and improving so quickly, I think they've earned their place. I just don't like trying to watch 6 State title matches at once.

I lost my pool last year with ~55 people in it because I took Vito. I'm not a quicker learner, so I may go back to that well and hope someone dug it a bit deeper. That Glory-Vito match in the Semi's was one of the weirder ones I've seen. I thought...for a moment, Vito was the one who'd come out on top in that scramble and was scoring points. But Glory scored there, and then it was over. My friends to an upset bracket for March Madness. I don't know how they score it, but it's differently. You can still take a 1 seed, but you get fewer points. If you win, the fewer people who chose that school, the more points they get...and a whole lot of other shit. If I was making a pool based on that critera; My all upset team; 125-Glory 133-Vito (I'd bet the money would be about 55-35-10 RBY, Fix and Vito, so upset). 141-Johnson(I want to go with Alirez, but...tough to call him an upset when he's a likely 2 seed and undefeated...but the quality of wins isn't the best). Bartlett is the better bet, but Johnson is more than capable of a big tourney and winning the title. 149-Gomez 157-Haines(again, picked him last year, so can't change my flip now). 165-Hamiti-Nobody in the top 4 would shock. Monday would be a slight surprise, but given how deep this weight class is, but also top heavy, Hamiti would be a pretty big surprise). 174-Lewis I can't see Labriola beating both, so if not Starocci, it's gotta be Lewis. Not quite Owings vs Gable, but unexpected. 184-Keckhiesen 197-Trumble...but I could see 15 different guys make a run to the finals. HWT-Kerkvliet Not much of an upset as he's my favorite anyway but there's less margin for error in this weight. I think this is a 3-horse race and Parris is the favorite, so...there's that.

No...actually, I wasn't a Badger. I went to a bordering program (that's not Iowa). I did live in Wisconsin growing up(not in HS) and live there now. I also had family who went there, who Wrestled there. I have a great deal of respect for Jon Reader as a coach. I think Bono is a good guy, but as I said, he's intense, but seems to me like he's the type of guy you want in your corner, both figuratively and literally. Askren is an incredible Wrestler and 2nd to none at self promotion. Look no further than him talking a kid barely cracking 200 LBs into going up to HWT(which...is NOT an easy weight in Wisconsin this year with a defending State Champ and Runner up from 220 and HWT respectively). And Sinclair going to 220 despite being ~5'8 so the top AWA guys don't wrestle each other and you have favorites at maybe 8 straight weights. But he's quick to make comments about how Wrestlers don't improve under Bono each loss. Which...if people will recall, someone said O'Toole isn't improving at Missouri after the Carr loss. He clearly is. It was more about the absurdity of Askren's comments. Ben Askren wants Nick Becker to be the Badgers HC(if it's not him). Now...Becker would make one helluva D1 HC. I really believe that. I think he could have won NCs in D1(He was undefeated his final 3 years, wrestled a little bit on the Sr circuit losing a close match to Mark Hall on criteria). And he gets the Askren stamp of approval. And he DOESN'T have anywhere near that same ego. The question is, if you're UW, how much are you willing to placate one Wrestler? Does he just get to call all the shots? And what if he and Becker get into it in the future? Square One...

Same here. We had a smaller one about the best Freestyle Wrestler of all-time. I've got Sadulaev #1, mspart(and a lot of others) still have Saitiev...or Medved. Hell, I even enjoy the Jordan-LeBron debate. I know we're supposed to hate Basketball, but...what can I say, I'm still a fan.

Right. There's WAAAY too much context needed. Lets say...hypothetically, Taylor turns it around and catches Dake in a cradle and wins a 1 point match. Does Dake no longer belong in the convo? In fact, I think Lincoln McCllarvy belongs in the conversation. I enjoy these debates(in any sport) as long as it doesn't turn into bullshit about knocking another Wrestler down rather than advocating for one Wrestler. For example, Stieber. I hear a lot of people try Oliver had the TD. He didn't. It was a point of emphasis that year, that EXACT position. Had to get your head out and/or be above the ankles. It'd be a TD now, argue it was a bad rule, but it was something the refs covered that year repeatedly(which is why you see a pretty subdued John Smith given the situation).

During a duel, fine, but a tournament? Nah, that's silly. You're stuck in a fieldhouse all day. Sorry, but what type of dick is going to say, "hey, don't go over there and spend the 95% of the time you're not Wrestling with those people who traveled hours to watch you Wrestle. As for the videos...again, indifferent. If I have(had) a 2 seed, I didn't want him watching the top seed every match. I'll watch him and if there's anything specific, I'll let him know. He's also GOING to watch because kids don't listen, but I want them to take their minds off Wrestling. This sport is a grind. And if it's the Beast of the East(we didn't go to that, just a hypothetical) I actually WANT my kids to go spend time with their families, laugh at stupid videos, or just hang out with their teammates screwing around and joking. The key is just having good leaders on the team and a good culture. The program I stepped into had both. I didn't need to do a whole lot. We had a team warmup 45 minutes after weigh-ins(in-between the trainer would do the taping and whatnot). An intense, 15 minute drill session to work up a sweat, loosen up the muscles. Then we'd have a quick team meeting after every round. They knew exactly where to be. Just a quick check up. But I'd spend time with the parents myself and the kids would be in the stands with uncles and parents whenever they wanted. Edit-In terms of the coaching, that's something you just have to deal with. And some of the guys had parents who'd wrestled for years. There's always a lot of pain in the ass parents, but that's part of dealing with kids. And you need to know when to bite your tongue. Parents complained I didn't yell enough during matches(because yelling "out, out, out!" is super effective). Some that I yelled too much. Some that I yelled at the refs too much, some that I didn't work the refs enough. You're never going to please the parents of the ~20 kids you'll have Wrestling varsity. You shouldn't try to. But the larger point, Wrestling isn't "fun." The sport is great, it's rewarding, but I'm not trying to make the tournaments more grueling than they already are with the Wrestling.

I'm pretty sure(positive) he'd say Bono is as well I don't know why it's the "crazy part," to you.

100% of the kids who would be considered "elite." There are probably 4-5 "AWA" kids on the roster. Though even that. There was a club I wrestled at growing up when I was in...maybe 6th grade and 7th grade for 2-3 weeks each. They had 3 practices a week leading up to some of the bigger National Tournaments. I ran into the guy who ran it. He was a nice enough guy, but...they're generally big into self promotion. He stops me after I'd just finished Wrestling, winning this particular event and he's with 4-5 guys and he congratulates me and then announces I was a _____kid(I don't want to name it) kid! And so was my Brother and my Cousins while then asking about another kid who was a super-stud. A kid who'd Wrestle in 3 different States High School Tournaments and he says and HE was one of my guys too! I just kinda nodded and as I'm walking my actual coach says, "did you all actually Wrestle there." I laughed and said, "I went there probably 20 times in my life and nobody else he mentioned had. The next year on the brochure all of our names were on there! I get it, you want to be able to point to people who've had some level of success and say, "they trained here."

There's a couple guys from AWA who go to Wisconsin. They're very solid Wrestlers, but they're not the "Blue Chip" recruits.

Because of Askren. Yeah, not everyone is gonna love Bono, but Askren is so petty. Same issue as with Davis. Mirasola made a subtle reference and it was Askren's words coming out of his mouth. He talked about the first night of recruiting and how some coaches "act like they care, but you know they're fake." This was directed at Bono and they wouldn't even take his call because Askren is still upset he was "only" offered 40% coming out. Nevermind he had a HORRIBLE visit and ran his mouth to the entire team. But he clings to the pettiest shit. Bono at least when he left SDSU brought people with and still could recruit the state(at least up until the Burwick situation...which again, LITERALLY had nothing to do with him...hell, I've heard people blame him for not releasing Robb when he left and HE-WAS-GONE! It was Hahn would wouldn't release him). Bono isn't for everyone. He's intense, but Askren questioning his character...that little feud stems from the start of Covid(before things were cancelled). He was the RTC coach, guys were kinda scrambling to get workouts in as things were in flux and another AWA coach wanted to bring his kids up to the room to work out next to the RTC. When told they couldn't because Wisconsin was limiting how many people could be in a room, this particular coach didn't get upset, BEN did. 1-Because he wasn't told about the workout...but it was kinda impromptu and B-because AWA was told no. Neither were by Bono. And then...might as well just throw this all out there. Askren publicly questioned their "commitment" to their Wrestlers and their "loyalty," after they brought in Lamont and Gomez. He's called them "transfer-U," despite the fact that ONE was a Wrestler who came back after retiring, and the other was a Wrestler who contacted them. And I get you wanna go to bat for your guys(such as the Wrestler who was penciled in at 149) but you don't pass on Austin Gomez. Lamont was an even stranger case. He contacted them. They certainly didn't put on the full court press for a very talented Wrestler, but a kid with one year left when they had a good young '33 pounder AND they'd just recruited a couple of STUDS to Wrestle there(Rivera and Greyson Clark who re-opened his recruitment after committing and spending a week with....I'll let you take a guess. There was another AWA kid who had a scholarship at UW. It wasn't a big scholarship, but it was flat. Well...they needed some space for that year as they'd just gotten a ELITE recruit and were just short trying to get under the 9.9 and they had money freeing up the following year). So about 10 days before, Bono goes to the parents and says 'we can't do X amount each year, but we'll backload it. If he's still with the program as a Sr, he'll get X amount of dollars.' The parents signed off(I heard this straight from the parents). Well...guess who didn't and was upset about it? The parents and the kid agreed, but Ben claimed he lied and he had no integrity 10 days later when it was time to sign. He signed but later transferred and so he didn't get the big chunk he would have gotten. I don't want to get too specific here. There's also the Gross situation. Askren claims that he was promised a job if he transferred there and that's why Matt Mcdonough was "forced out." The only problem...Gross had a job with the RTC at the time and was in the room already. So we're back to some assumptions being made that...don't really make sense. The bottom line, you have a big Ego in Bono and you have a galactic sized Ego in Askren. Askren has publicly talked about how he tells his kids you won't get better at Wisconsin, he goes online and taunts Bono and the program. He's called people "stupid" for considering Wisconsin. And he's the face of the best club in the State. These kids OBVIOUSLY have a great deal of respect for him. Sinclair was asked where he had Wisconsin(before he was allowed to be recruited, so he hadn't yet spoke to anyone). He said "how mny programs are there? 72? They're 73rd." Now...a YEAR earlier he'd said his dream was to Wrestle at Wisconsin. They're not PSU or Iowa, but they've got a pretty solid program, but Askren is cutting their legs out from under them. I know both and I can see people taking issue with both of them...trust me, I get that. But short of Askren being named the HC at Wisconsin or the ONE other person that he'd approve getting the job, he will do what he can to get the kids from his camps to go elsewhere. It's kinda sad. The ONE D1 School in the State and the top Club and probably the greatest Wrestler(at least Folkstyle) from the state just cannot get along! And as a result, it's hurting the program, but it's also hurting the kids. You have kids who HAD dreamed of Wresting at Wisconsin, who's family went to Wisconsin and Reader, Gross, etc...(much less Bono) literally can't get a phone call from these kids. I'll say this, ONE other thing that really hurt was Branvold leaving. I know he was tight with a lot of guys. Also, you have ONE of the two publicly taunting or mocking recruits and the other has said he'd love to sit down and discuss some of the issues. But of course, Ben won't do it unless it's live on Flo. Does ANYONE think that Bono wins in that scenario? They've got some really good kids coming in. Ferrari, Davino and Hopke have them in their final 3(I'd say Hopke goes to Minnesota, but they already invested pretty heavily in Nelson who's just a year older). I think it'll take really hitting a few Home Runs with some other kids, the new facilities and then just a lot of momentum for the program to be able to compete with the sway Askren has over the kids at AWA. So when you ask me if it's one or the other, I definitely thinks it's WAY more one than the other.

They're a tier below O'Toole...but not a big one. They're both BIG time studs. I'd guess 197 and 184 in College. They are wrestling HWT and 195 so that AWA can have a string of State Champs(all about Ben's Ego). But I've watched a lot of Wisconsin kids the last couple years and there is no state with more elite College Talent in the 2024 class than Wisconsin(I appreciate that there will be a mountain of skeptics). They probably have about 15 years of talent squeezed into one class. The best IMO are Sinclair and Hopke, but they've got studs everywhere. Probably on the same tier as Charlie Millard(he was a Soph last year who lost to Mitchell Messenbrink in the State Finals). Just a shade below Greyson Clark, a Purdue kid who originally committed to Wisconsin, but has really stepped it up. The rich get richer. There's another few kids like Bast, a kid...DuChateau I think(from the same school as Askren) and a few others who are very solid recruits. Koy Hopke is the prize of this class. I'll guess he's a Gopher, but there's gonna be a LOT of guys high on the podium from Wisconsin who don't end up at UW because of Askren.

One last post; 97KG people just don't move like this. Not in Freestyle; https://www.instagram.com/reel/CgX9WexFnzG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link One of the most impressive scrambles ever(at least among the women's style).

Well...TALKING about Wrestling on a Forum or picking winners is nerd talk too. I'm find with that moniker. There is obviously no definitive answer...normally. I'd say Karelin is the definitive Goat in his respective style even if Lopez has won 4. Why do you think politics will prevent any sort of numbers being able to justify an argument for him at the end? Do you think Russia's going to be kicked out of the Olympics? Far as I heard, they were going to let them perform under a neutral flag. I hope common sense prevails and they're at least allowed to do that. There's...so many reasons why this ripe with hypocrisy and contradictions and...all of that. Putin=Bad. Sadulaev to the best of my knowledge was not involved in the decision to invade the Ukraine. Shy of that or testing dirty(no reason to think he is other than guilt by association)...and he should be allowed to compete. No question.

Well...TALKING about Wrestling on a Forum or picking winners is nerd talk too. I'm find with that moniker. It's barber shop talk. It's just bullshitting. You do it with everything. Greatest Football player, Baseball player, style of Wrestling... There is obviously no definitive answer...normally. I'd say Karelin is the definitive Goat in his respective style even if Lopez has won 1 more Olympic Title. Why do you think politics will prevent any sort of numbers being able to justify an argument for him at the end? Do you think Russia's going to be kicked out of the Olympics? Far as I heard, they were going to let them perform under a neutral flag. I hope common sense prevails and they're at least allowed to do that. There's...so many reasons why this ripe with hypocrisy and contradictions and...all of that. Putin=Bad. Sadulaev to the best of my knowledge was not involved in the decision to invade the Ukraine. Short of that or doping, there's no reason to not allow a citizen to compete.

Well...again, he lost in '07 and didn't make the Russian World Team. So I think there's an argument that he may not have won a couple more WCs based on that. As he DID end up coming back and made the team the following year, it's kinda moot. Both of them were just such amazing technicians. The greatest scramble I've ever seen was Sadulaev vs a Bulgarian. I can't find it, trying to get ahold of it, but to see a man of his size move the way he did, it was incredible. Saitiev looked like he was almost drilling at times. He just made the sport look easy. And I've never seen Medved.

Nope...all good. I probably should have figured it out. I grew up hearing how Title9 was just awful. Shockingly, it's not quite that simple! It does hurt Wrestling a bit, but again, mostly, it's just used as an excuse.

I don't know if it's quite as clear-cut as you're suggesting. Sadulaev is at 5 WCs and 2 Olympics at age 26. They've each lost to an American...Saitiev was to Slay in the Semi's and Sadulaev was to Snyder. Saitiev was 6/3. He lost at one WC, didn't make the team for 2 others and then bowed out and kinda gave the spot to his brother at a 3rd. 144-1(plus a MFF). Either way, Sadulaev is just 26 years old. I think it's pretty clear he's going to sail past Saitiev's accomplishments in just pure numbers(if he wants). Clearly they don't always tell the whole story, otherwise...you could just use a point system. I don't think most reasonable people would rank Dan Gable below most Jake Rosholt(For example...now shad on Rosholt, he was a stud). No consideration for Medved though? from '62-'72 he won every Olympics and World Title he competed in. Had a kinda Snyder-Sadulaev competition going with Duraliev(though he never lost).

Did you read what I wrote? Too many Colleges have folded Wrestling under the guise of Title9 when in reality that had little to do with it. I agreed with you. In some cases, Title9 did make it the obvious sport as there wasn't a Women option, but largely it was just a way to cut costs and even when costs for that program were covered because it'd mean that they'd have to fund another women's program(so I guess Title9 played some role, but it's grossly overstated). Which is pretty much what i said last time around.

Didn't Tommy Rowlands wrestle 103 as a Freshmen and then Wrestle HWT ending up as a...I THOUGHT he was 3X finalist, going 1/2/1 and then a 6th when he got injured in the Semis and MFF to 6th. Something along those lines. At a time when Garrett Lowney(the Olympic Champ....in Greco) was in the weight, as well as other athletic, smaller HWTs and then Mocco? I'd be curious how many 103 LB Freshmen end up as HWTs. Probably more common for someone to wrestle 103 in HS with Middle School Wrestlers eligible in some weights, but even still, pretty impressive growth spirt.

Something to talk about. It's not a ranking, just opinions. At long as they're somewhat informed. Though...these are terrible. Clearly...these people do not watch those Avenger Movies. Like Captain America should be behind this Sadulaev character. What's he actually done? A couple little Olympics and a handful of World Titles? Not-impressed. His Dagestani countryman left HIS sport undefeated and Sadulaev has moved from 86 to 97 to duck the competition. Seriously though, has he passed Saitiev or Medved yet? Or does he need to win a couple more WCs and maybe an Olympic Title?