scourge165

Minnesota with 10 AAs and no Champs is noteworthy...in the "only wrong answers" type of way.

I again don't think the Russian athletes should be banned, especially not for two more cycles, but what evidence do you have that the...USOC or USA Wrestling or anyone "at the top" is mandating the same type of widespread doping the Russians were caught doing? Or any illegal Performance enhancing program, coordinated effort or anything other than someone here or there. There may be some athletes who take Adderall that's grandfathered in yet, but I think the comparison in lieu of any evidence is a little wild. Russia was on a whole different level. It's like comparing a shop lifter to Bernie Madoff.

You're going to have 18 year old athletes being penalized for things that were happening when they were born or had no control over. I'm fine with them not competing under the Russian Flag, but this seems a bit harsh.

Ok, so they were allowed to compete the last cycle...these are findings from before most of the current athletes were competing. How many years later should they ban all the Russian athletes?

Haven't heard that, but I listened to Anatoly not long ago talk about his life Wresting and it was a great video. The "Wrestling Changed my Life" podcast. Spent a while talking about the difference in how they train in the US vs Russia. Actually said a lot of people in Russia don't take it as seriously because they don't have the funding behind them. It was a little difficult to understand exactly when he was talking about because he mentioned how some private businessmen have come in and sponsored Wrestlers, but Putin doesn't fund the Wrestlers as much as the Olympic Sports which he qualified as Track and Field and something else. There was a little lost in translation, but it was a great interview. Didn't listen his brothers. Maybe it's in that one. Reminded me a bit of the Brands brothers in how he talked about not being able to train with his brother beyond just drilling because it'd end up in fights. Said a few things that were counter to what American's think, but talked about the emphasis on technique over physical training vs America where it's the other way around and how it forced the Russians to change things a bit. The brother is probably overlooked a bit because of the boycotts. It's not quite the same as, but it hurt the athletes and did little to "punish" either Nation in '80 or '84. Just stole opportunities from guys like Kemp in the '80s and the Russians in '84. There are enough people caught up in Putin's actions. I don't see why the athletes...who haven't tested dirty shouldn't be allowed to compete. We actually agree. If you're going to police who can compete in the Olympics based on their Countries behavior, just crown everyone from Switzerland now. Those are your Olympic Champions.

I think the Mekhi Lewis win was a pretty big one. 1X Champ and very possibly a 2X Champ if not for the injury in '21. Again, beating a Bronze Medalist was pretty impressive. Ruth beat the same person you're referencing at least twice...though before he won it. I said I think you could make an argument for all 4. How does that end up being controversial? You're also quoting a response to a PSU fan stating Brooks was the best and that he won't get his credit, so if you've got an issue with that, take it up with him.

Literally said this. I WAS however going off YOUR words; See, "set him off," and "lost his composure" are context clues. And the "to be fair...." and the 'this was the only time,' qualifiers suggest it wasn't the best possible behavior. Christ...is there anything you can't find a way to whine about?

No...why don't you explain to me the reference or this great "joke" you made? And someone named Paul something who used a weight class in his screen name? Yup...you got it! Keep the gears grinding and I'm sure you'll get there. I'm not sure how I'M the one who got into the "pissing match" here other than by disagreeing with you...which you somehow took to be a personal affront. I remember someone like that posting on wiwrestling. His name was Ben something. Always right and ready to argue about anything. Interesting coincidence

I know there was a belief Wisconsin had a good shot to land Angelo. I don't really have a clue about the whole family, but Bono had apparently spoke with the family, AJ. It's also hard to tell if that's coming from people who dislike Bono(it was painting as he was going after AJ because...he liked a post or something but mainly Angelo). No clue if they were the favorites and I am skeptical the school would let AJ Wrestle without...the grades and much more importantly, the court case playing out and in his favor like the Quintez Cephus case.

Did he pull him off the mat WHILE he was wrestling? What happened here. That seems pretty wild...kinda the definition of what we were talking about with "toxic parents," but I don't know the extent of the details.

Ok...Nickal always had the "dawg" in him. That seems like it'd be inferring one was tougher coming out vs the other. And yes, that brilliant "joke" about needing coach Cal more than Cael! Because they're almost spelled the same! Or maybe Taylor just needed to add weight to he wasn't losing to one of the most decorated American's and another world Champ in Dake...either way. Nickal's best win? And his losses were MUCH worse. Nate Jenkins? A loss to the 12 seed he avenged 4-3. Never said it was "unreasonable." I said I disagreed. And then you wondered why and now you're getting a bit sensitive about all of it. Kinda seems like you're the one who's suggesting it's "unreasonable" to go with Taylor.

I could argue for all 4...pretty much any order. Ruth made it look so easy...effortless. Like he wasn't even trying almost. They'd all struggle to score on Brooks. I don't think Brooks is going to fail to get recognition. He's going to win 4 in 4 potentially and what seed was he as a Freshmen? A True Freshmen when he had one loss to Venz that he avenged at the B1Gs? A Bronze Medalist in his bracket...the only thing that might take some shine off Brooks 4th is Starocci's 4th and then that random loss to Coleman, but you're still talking about a kid on the precipice of being a 4X Champ. I think I'd still put DT right in that group with Brooks though. I don't think it's as simple as ranking them in groups among 3X, 4X or a 2X champ.

My bad. Lost to Martin in the finals while Ruth got beaten by the kid from Stanford and Wrestled all the way back to 3rd. That was imperssive. Agreed. How about Starocci/Brooks vs Nickal/Ruth?

Yeah, I don't know why this got the Jimmy Cinnabon treatment. It is a better comp. Nickal took a 3rd at '74 then spent 2 years at '84. Taylor took a 2nd at '57 and then wrestled '65. Ruth wrestled two years at '74 and two at '84.

I think Taylor would win this weight. Not as easily as he won it in '12 obviously. 4 pins and a tech. But I don't think O'Toole could scramble with him. Hamiti is kinda like Taylor just...well, a lesser version at this point. I think he's tech Khcarchla to be honest. People forget, that weight had guys like Evans or Kokesh who were similar in style to Kharchla...IMO, but better. Carr and O'Toole...obviously the best matchup's, but I think Taylor did what they did, just better. I did think Taylor should have gone up and tried to add some weight, but it was always kinda hard to argue with the results. I would have said 174, I never would have guessed he'd have gotten as big as he did.

Because you infer that Nickal was the better Wrestler coming out of High School and...as I've been told, this is a forum and when you disagree with someone, you point that out; I disagree. This is why I quoted you. I did mis-read what you said about Cael vs Cal, but it's also a different discussion. That's post-college. I'd say the 2 Hodge Awards, 1 loss in the finals to Jenkins and then vs Dake.

What are you talking about? Why are your points always so vague and incomplete? "One size fits all philosophies are silly." No, they're not. You don't need a 6 year old Wrestling all over the Country and you don't need to freak out over his Wrestling. That size does "fit all." "Should we celebrate average or greatness?" Yeah, you were definitely that Dad going nuts in the corner of kids tournaments living vicariously through your kids. And that usually leads to VERY bad outcomes. Either kids quitting Wrestling...or, even worse, Wrestling Greco... What Askren preaches is absolutely the right way to do it. What he practices...doesn't always match. That's the extent I'm going to keep talking about him.

LOL...yes...playing Multiple sports in High School stopped in 1981. Koy Hopke definitely doesn't play multiple sports. Ben Keuter definitely...single sport guy. Edit-And by the way, I did that about 15 years ago and...had a good amount of success vs say a...Chris Phillips who was an absolute hammer but was burned out by the time he got to HS and didn't want to Wrestle. Or COUNTLESS others who've had varied level of success without Wrestling 300 days a year and playing one sport. How many NFL players have played multiple sports or College HWTs? The idea that you think it's so fantastical tells me you're also probably a little part of the problem. Also, isn't it "la la land?" Or did you actually mean La la lane?

Taylor was the better Wrestler coming out. Yeah, he may have needed Cael more than Cael needed him to win a World and Olympic Titles...or maybe he was just stuck at a weight with the most dominant Wrestler at that time and had to add 20 pounds of good weight to go up. You're acting like Taylor WASN'T a 4X Champ from Ohio. Best of the East, Ironman, #1 P4P wrestler...bumped up to take on Palmer in one of the best HS matches I've ever seen. Who wins? Probably Nickal just due to size, but I'll take Taylor as the better Wrestler. Taylor lost to Bubba Jenkins and then Dake. Nickal lost to Nate Jackson, Martin a couple times. Now a lot to separate them, but I think Taylor was better. 2X Hodge award winner. He LOOKED like the next Cael heading into that match undefeated and the favorite of Jenkins...but he lost. Then he gets Dake and they again gave us some of the best matches I've seen. 5-4 finals to give Dake his 4th. But Nickal was 197. So are we saying they're closer in weight and imagining how it'd go? Because obviously a 165 Taylor wouldn't beat a 197 Nickal.

It's a bit difficult to discuss this when there are two wildly different set of standards. You're arguing your own beliefs. And I don't even disagree. I'd say 6th grade is about the perfect age to start to get more serious. That is NOT however the comment I was replying to; So when the claim is made that he waits until HS...or that he doesn't suffer the toxic parents, it's just not true. And again, this idea that he's got this strict standard with parents who are too intense, it reminds me of the old saying in the NFL. "Be who you can afford to be." Charlie Millard's parents can afford to be a lot more obnoxious because...he's a stud and it helps the AWA brand(to be clear, I picked parents who specifically weren't over the top to make my point).

Ok, so you're of the belief that he doesn't push the kids to start wrestling National Tournaments or to focus on Wrestling until their in HS? There's an inconsistency. There's a whole other inconsistency when it comes to the parents. I kinda thought given the fact that he had one of those parents, he be more consistent, but if there's a kid he can get ahold of and slap an AWA next to their name, if they're good enough, the parents behavior doesn't change much. And if those "more serious" kids are in 5th or 6th grade? You just used HS as your starting point. He very clearly starts well before then...and what he really does is he takes the best kids, the kids already doing it and then will kinda take over there. Getting right down to it, it's Messenbrink who discourages pushing kids in Elementary or Middle School from overtraining and then trains the hell outta them when they get to HS. Did it at a parent, as a coach and it's why I think he's really the..."secret sauce" in the whole AWA philosophy. Messenbrink practices what he preaches. In fact, there was one kid who wasn't allowed at open mat and at some of the club practices because they were...a bit too competitive and maybe got a bit too upset when they ended up on the short end of the stick. That kid was actually not allowed to finish last year(2021-2022) at the open Gyms. John Messenbrink had a very close connection to him. This is part of the reason I think Mitchell Messenbrink is going to be a contender as soon as next year(wherever he ends up). He's so hypercompetitive, he's a smart kid, a mature kid and I think his Dad has helped reign him in.

Right...and I'm in no way changing my statement that he's wildly inconsistent on this part. I'm pretty sure the way I'm looking at it is complete, but I'd need something more than a 'nuh-uh,' to be persuaded as I'm not even sure what point you're making.

Faison seems like a fairly good bet doesn't he? Trombley...only 2 automatic bids and what, 4 at large? He'll have to have a big tournament.

Kids Wrestling has gotten genuinely disturbing. These parents sit around the mats and scream like they're at dog fights. And you cannot get to the Mat without fighting your way through like it's a rave. I took my Nephew to a kids tournament, 800 kids in a gym that shouldn't have had more than 400. Took 10 hours to Wrestle 3 matches. You put the kids level of experience on there. He'd only wrestled maybe 5-6 tournaments. He'd been going to a club for parts of two years. I put him as a 2 out of 3. 1=Beginner, 2=some experience, 3=High level. That was new to me. He won the tournament, but he didn't look like a young Kolat or anything. Got taken down each time, reversals, regular kids Wrestling. He was confronted by this fat bald guy as we were waiting to leave(getting his bracket and medal). The guy was yelling at HIM for the group they put him in with. To be honest, I wasn't even sure if he beat his kid when they were Wrestling because I wasn't really keeping score. Well, he won. I guess 11-8 or something. Who gives a shit really? I've never seen a former Wrestler out there getting super worked up about a kids tournament, ESPECIALLY at that age. That's some toxic shit no matter what your definition of toxic is. You constantly see kids crying as the parents are in the corners screaming. The Mom's are just as bad as the Dad's. It's insane. I don't recall my Dad EVER saying anything to me before a match other than "be ready," and "make sure your shoes are tied." It kinda became a joke as he continued through College. But I don't think I could have taken it...having one of those Dad's who lived through you. From what I can tell, things have gotten exponentially worse in the past 10-15 years since I was in Youth tournaments. He got nervous and he got into the matches, but he never tried coaching me unless I asked and he was just...quiet in the tournament. I assume this is what people are talking about when they talk about toxic. Just how out of control some parents get, the screaming, the yelling, yelling at kids. The kids throwing fits when they lost and nothing. Parents need to just...be better. You wonder why you have fewer officials or why you see parents fighting with kids.