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But those were the 2 points I addressed in my prior post. Are you claiming losing a middleweight to add a weight between 197 and heavyweight would increase total participation? Sorry, but that couldn’t be more wrong.

So why should there be a weight between 197 and heavyweight?

If those are the two options, yes. IMO the goal should be to grow total participation. If so, then the opportunities should be where the participants are. We have far more participants at the middle weights than the upper weights. If the response to this is “the goal should be to give us the best chance to succeed internationally,” then for the 97kg issue the solution should be to increase 184 and 197, not add another upperweight.

Trump supporter according to his uncle

Lol

I’d agree with this translation. Which still means it makes no sense that Ferrari would wrestle attached at Soldier Salute. I guess maybe they plan to use Arnold for most of the remainder of the season but still don’t know why they wouldn’t have just preserved the date by having Ferrari wrestle unattached. Yes, I believe he still has 2 more dates he can wrestle in and still preserve his redshirt. But the second one is a great question…

They could do the Penn State “medical” redshirt like Nagao and possibly Facundo are doing.

If anything Hamiti probably has more incentive to duck the dual (although I’d be shocked if he did). If O’Toole wins the dual but loses at Big 12’s then Haines likely has an argument for the #1 seed

Seeding wise I don’t see the downside to O’Toole wrestling in the dual against Hamiti. If he wins B12’s he’s still likely the #1 seed

I believe Askren said on FRL that he was likely to redshirt regardless of Elam’s situation.

Obviously there are plenty of novice 106 pounders that were pulled out of the hallways, but on the whole they tend to be much more experienced and better technical wrestlers than 220’s/heavyweights. @BruceyB pretty much summed up what my response would have been:

Zain has always had a massive cut to get to 65, I think that’s more just about how big he is in general and there only being 6 Olympic weights vs having anything to do with the college weight. Has Henson said he plans on going 65kg at all? Mendez seemed to do fairly well at 65 though… That said, I’d be fine with changing 133/141/149 to 135/143/150 or something like that if you want 143 to be closer to 65 kg

Yeah other than the insults, I was most confused by the comments about upperweight wrestlers being enticed by NIL opportunities to play football. How exactly would making more upperweight classes in wrestling change this? It’s also not all that different than in the past, since with 85 scholarships and many more schools offering football scholarships, it has always been far easier to get a football scholarship than a wrestling scholarship.

Yeah I think we mostly agree. I did call out that we don’t know the ratio of total guys staying the same weight vs moving up. Are we really sure more guys stay the same vs going up? I have no idea. But if you wouldn’t count someone that bumped up in a previous year as having bumped up, then that would make the numbers even more in favor of the non-bumpers. To that point, I agree that I’d like to see which weights have the highest % of success when bumping up, but along the same lines it would have to be in context with the total number of guys making the jump. For example my hypothesis would be that 125 to 133 is the most common jump for guys to make, but would have the lowest success %, and 197 to heavyweight would have the highest %, but likely a lower number of total guys that made the jump.

What is your non-anecdotal evidence? Let’s look at Midlands as an example (and these numbers are not uncommon): 285: 25 entries 197: 21 entries 141: 31 entries 149: 34 entries Soldier Salute: 285: 20 entries 197: 19 entries 141: 21 entries 149: 28 entries If college closer aligned with international weights, that would mean combining 141 & 149, where we have among the highest participation, into one weight, and adding an additional weight where we have among the lowest. It doesn’t make sense. But again, I’m on board with increasing 184 and 197 to better align.

Yeah so you want an additional weight between 197 and heavyweight, and to lose a middleweight. What is your opinion about shifting 184 and 197 up?

I did it a few posts up for 2022-2024.

You also repeated the question you asked about national champs to me. But honestly looking at champs is probably a good start. And again, I agree that as a whole (so not just champs), many guys do just as good or better as they move up in weight, but many don’t (albeit generally not guys who were already champs). I still disagree that talking about what guys did in future years after the year being discussed is relevant though. Over the last 3 seasons, in the years they won, more often than not the champs had not yet moved up in weight during their career.

Thanks. True, forgot you were only looking at multiple time AA’s.

Thank you kind sir. Any way to see guys that went from 197 to heavyweight compared to other weight bumps?

I said “lol wut” because I was confused how you were trying to claim that 3 guys that won titles before moving up in weight somehow proves your point. Your argument has been that guys typically IMPROVE as they move up in weight. If they already won a title down a weight before moving up, that’s generally not really improving. And you were the one that first focused on champs. Here’s one of your earlier statements: “Lets take the NCs each year every year and see how they did as a Jr and Sr vs Fresh and Soph. Where do you think there's a bigger correlation? Their grade or the weight?” You were also the one that turned this into an overall moving up vs cutting or staying the same argument. Yes, plenty of guys do just as good or better when moving up. But plenty of guys struggle too. But for guys going from 197 to heavyweight, that struggle is pretty rare, and again, you continuing to try to use a guy that was undefeated going into NCAA’s as an example of that is pretty funny (Bastida has also only wrestled one NCAA tourney at heavyweight btw). Got any other examples? My overall point in posting originally was more in response to @bnwtwg and I think a couple others who have repeatedly claimed in other threads that there should be an ADDITIONAL weight in between 197 and heavyweight. I strongly disagree with that. I’m totally on board with shifting 184 and 197 up though. I would say 270+ would be “full sized” IMO. I do think it’s interesting that you’d consider 250 to be “full sized” after previously commenting about the “90 lb gap.”

That still gives 1 advancement point

Guessing stuff like this will start happening in wrestling if it hasn’t already - Tulsa football players claiming they never received NIL money that was promised. The QB interviewed Legas was apparently a 2x Utah state wrestling champ. https://www.fox23.com/news/tu-football-players-express-frustrations-over-not-receiving-nil-money-they-say-former-coach-promised/article_6a5f7da4-b11c-11ef-bd67-df089fe7c661.html

Looking at some of the favorites for this year between 133-197 133: could go either way, Crookham/Byrd/Bouzakis/Bailey career 133’s so far, Ayala/Davis up from 125 141: could go either way, Alirez and Bartlett down from 149 (yes I know Bartlett wasn’t a real 149 but also was never a 133), Mendez up from 133 149: Henson/Van Ness/Watters career 149’s, Parco only wrestled 141 as a redshirt. Lovett did do the rare 2 weight bump and AA’d at the higher weight after not AA’ing at the lower one 157: Shapiro career 157 so far, Kasak up from 149 165: Mesenbrink career 165 so far 174: O’Toole/Haines/Hamiti all up 184: Starocci up from 174, Keckeisen career 184 197: Buchanan/Cardenas/Ferrari/Little career 197’s so far, Barr up from 184 So in all likelihood we’ll see a career 165 win there, and someone bumping up win 174. 133, 149, 197 I’d lean towards a non-bumper 184 lean towards a bumper 141 and 157 tossups

Lol wut? For one, if your argument is guys doing BETTER as they move up, then technically you should not be including prior champs… But I was, although it only makes sense to focus on that particular year. But to help you out should probably exclude 125 and heavyweight since 125’s can’t move up and my argument is that 197’s do well moving up. So even doing that, of the remaining 8 weights, in the last 3 tournaments 14 had not wrestled at a lower weight previously and 10 had. Also was Parris really “full sized”? I thought he was about 250ish?