Do you see Spencer Lee leaving Iowa?

[pawrestler]

Why do people not think it’s a mental block after watching min 20-21 of the interview above and what Brands is saying before the match? He’s saying that he needs to not get in his own head and relax etc and basically doing self affirmations. I’m sincerely not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious how others are interpreting those clips

[peanut]

Spencer needs to study Buddhism. Then he will learn to transcend his ego. He will not need victories, or happiness, or comforts. He will equally be above pain and concern for his reputation. He will just be.

Edited 21 hours ago by peanut

[CHROMEBIRD]

5 hours ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

If rumors are true that he injured his knee again, I think it is more likely that he retires than relocates.

I hope he does whatever he feels is best for him. If that includes staying at Iowa, awesome. If not, so be it. 

Injury or no, I'll chalk today's results to the ol' "early in the quad irrelevance" and predict that he'll be good for a run at 2028. I, too, thought the runway was pretty clear for Spencer to win a World title this year, and he clearly puts a ton of pressure on himself, so my biggest worry is that this weekend's somewhat meaningless L will turn him into a head case. The sport has not been kind to Spencer when stakes are high, but then again, it's has not kind to 99.999% of us. Maybe he should talk with Tony Ramos' sports psychologist or take a year off and climb some rocks somewhere. He's been grinding nonstop since he was a kid and could use a bit of a break.

[BAC]

My takeaway from watching him today is he needs better and more diverse practice partners.  And he needs to compete more in general. 

In the Harutyunyan match, Spencer looked unprepared and flat-footed, almost like he miscalculated what his strength would enable him to get away with given (e.g. the first and last takedowns).  He looked unprepared for the level of resistance he'd get on his shots, and seemed to either underestimate his opponent's pressure or he just wasn't accustomed to it. He seemed totally unaware that Harutyunyan laces the opposite direction. It didn't expose Spencer as inferior, just unready.

When I first saw it, I thought he looked like a guy who was just getting the rust off after a long injury.  After rewatching it, it occurred to me that he actually looked more like a guy who'd been roughing up low-level competition in the practice room, and hadn't been getting either the quality or variety of high-end looks you need going into worlds, where every match is high-caliber competition. 

Sadly, this jibes with what we know of his training situation.  It seems like they have him all locked down in Iowa City, rolling around with mediocre college kids, focused on drilling and keeping Spencer's confidence up.  It's like he thought that if he just does the stuff he uses to pin Dru Ayala and Joey Cruz all day, he'll be fine. (Drake's off-limits, last I knew.)  It's embarrassing.  What's more, from the Olympics till now, how many international tournaments has he been in?  One?  Come on man.

Maybe instead of constantly telling him how great he is, Brands should get him some practice partners that can give him some of the looks he saw from today, and rough him up. Sharpen him with iron, not clay.  Use those donor bucks to throw him into every international tournament you can find so he knows the field.  Stop treating Spencer like he's this fragile vase, about to break at any moment. 

If Brands can't find someone to bring in who can push him, maybe do some sort of 6-month club swap, e.g. send him to Stillwater to roll around with Fix, RBY, Sakamoto, Figueroa, Spratley and Jax. Maybe OSU can send over Wyatt for 6 months to roll around with Dreshaun and Keuter. 

If Brands can't bring himself to extract his claws from his prized pupil, even for a few months, then I hope Spencer realizes that he needs a change of scenery if he's going to succeed.  Let's hope he sits next to Zahid on the plane ride home, and Zahid can tell him all about it.

Edited 19 hours ago by BAC

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

13 minutes ago, BAC said:

My takeaway from watching him today is he needs better and more diverse practice partners.  And he needs to compete more in general. 

In the Harutyunyan match, Spencer looked unprepared and flat-footed, almost like he miscalculated what his strength would enable him to get away with given (e.g. in the first and last period).  He looked unprepared for the level of resistance he'd get on his shots, and seemed to either underestimate his opponent's speed or he just wasn't accustomed to it. 

When I first saw it, I thought he looked like a guy who was just getting the rust off after a long injury.  After rewatching it, it occurred that he actually looked more like a guy who'd been roughing up low-level competition in the practice room, and hadn't been getting the sorts of looks you need going into worlds of high-caliber competition. 

Sadly, this jibes with what we know of his training situation.  It seems like they have him all locked down in Iowa City, rolling around with mediocre college kids, focused on drilling and keeping Spencer's confidence up.  It's like he thought that if he just does the stuff he uses to pin Dru Ayala and Joey Cruz all day, he'll be fine. (Drake's off-limits, last I knew.)  It's embarrassing.  What's more, from the Olympics till now, how many international tournaments has he been in?  One?  Come on man.

Maybe instead of constantly telling him how great he is, Brands should get him some practice partners that can give him some of the looks he saw from today, and rough him up. Sharpen him with iron, not clay.  Use those donor bucks to throw him into every international tournament you can find so he knows the field.  Stop treating Spencer like he's this fragile vase, about to break at any moment. 

If Brands can't find someone to bring in who can push him, maybe do some sort of 6-month club swap, e.g. send him to Stillwater to roll around with Fix, RBY, Sakamoto, Figueroa, Spratley and Jax. Maybe OSU can send over Wyatt for 6 months to roll around with Dreshaun and Keuter. 

If Brands can't bring himself to extract his claws from his prized pupil, even for a few months, then I hope Spencer realizes that he needs a change of scenery if he's going to succeed.  Let's hope he sits next to Zahid on the plane ride home, and Zahid can tell him all about it.

I don't disagree with everything, but there are some problematic things.

1.  How many international tournaments do the top guys in the world do?  Our top guys?  Not much more than 1.

2.  He's had Japanese partners in Iowa for most of the last year.  Otoguro?  Maybe someone else?

3.  Wait... you're saying he is treated fragile?  Maybe, but the rest of the world thinks he's too beaten up.

Why would Wyatt go to U of Iowa for six months to roll with Dreshaun?

Not to mention, his workout partner last summer was Drake.  

Joey Cruz is gone.

So other than being uninformed and petty, your take is halfway decent.

Edited 19 hours ago by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[BAC]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

1.  How many international tournaments do the top guys in the world do?  Our top guys?  Not much more than 1.

Many of our top guys have other commitments -- either they're still in school, or they need to work (since they don't have funding) so they don't have time, or they need funds. Lee has none of those limitations.  Also, some have excellent training situations where they are, so getting international competition is less important.  Not the case with Lee. 

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

2.  He's had Japanese partners in Iowa for most of the last year.  Otoguro?  Maybe someone else?

Keisuke Otoguro? The 74kg'er? Somehow I doubt he's much of a practice partner for Spencer.  I think the younger brother Takuto visited briefly too, which is nice, but he was a 65kg'er back when he was competing, so I'm guessing it was mostly light sparring as he's probably pretty big for live goes.    

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

3.  Wait... you're saying he is treated fragile?  Maybe, but the rest of the world thinks he's too beaten up.

Both are true.  No doubt he's had his share of injuries, and Iowa sure squeezed all they could get out of him collegiately.  But if he's going to bring home gold, they need stop throwing cupcakes at him, and let him battle guys that can beat him. 

I sense he's treated as mentally fragile, too. But is he so fragile? This is a guy who's battled through injuries, wrestled on no ACLs and a bum shoulder, and hasn't ducked anyone. He's a warrior.  So why this need to build up his confidence? I honestly think his low-ish confidence is part of the reason he's had such success, as he's constantly trying to prove himself. 

So it drives me nuts when Brands won't shut up in interviews about how he's the greatest wrestler ever. Listen to the beginning of the Harutyunyan match, and you hear Brands yapping about how Spencer's better than him in every position.  Then he goes out and proceeds to get outwrestled by Harutyunyan in every position.  Honestly, is it really necessary, or even helpful, to prop up Lee with all that BS?  It's like you could hear all the air going out of the balloon when he got sored on, as reality set in.

Maybe if he were thrown in the lion's den in practice every day with live goes with guys that can beat him, and he consistently came out on top, he'd *know* he's the best without having to be told. Maybe if he's told that some guys are better than him, so he needs to get better too, he'd be motivated to improved.

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Why would Wyatt go to Iowa for six months to roll with Dreshaun?

Oh I dunno, I'm just thinking of who OSU would swap for Spencer for 6 months, since I'm trying to offer up options besides leaving Iowa City.  Not sure who Wyatt really has to roll around with in Stillwater except Taylor, who isn't exactly a HWT, so maybe Wyatt would benefit from rolling around with Keuter a while.  Dreshaun's a tough cat too. Wyatt can only tech-pin Doucet so many times before he needs a new look.

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Not to mention, his workout partner last summer was Drake.  

Glad to hear.  Including live goes? Last I knew, Drake's mom was salty that the Powers That Be wouldn't let Spencer practice with Drake, but that's a couple years ago. Drake's surely a better option than Cruz, though has he wrestled freestyle since Fargo?  I sort of doubt Drake's going mimicking Harutyunyan in practice anytime soon.

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

So other than being uninformed and petty, your take is halfway decent.

I'll take that.

Edited 18 hours ago by BAC

[RawDog]

Still having Gilman and real woods in the room would definitely be nice. The brands dropped the ball there.  However they did coach him to an Olympic silver. 

Spencer has good enough training partners and everything he needs to win at HWC, he just needs to put it all together.

[bnwtwg]

Why is everyone, including myself earlier this morning ("he will put up points but not a concern"), discounting Haruntunyan? He has a track record of bringing it and lights up the scoreboard. Yeah we all, myself loudest, thought Spencer Lee = Gold or bust. But everyone runs into a buzzsaw. Micic in 23 is a prime example. It happens and worlds is 10x tougher than olympics because the brackets are absolutely nails. 
 

I do think a change of scenery would be not bad, but Iowa would be petty as $hit about it after he signed his competitive life over to them. I also think that Bob can't buy the partners he needs, which is why he should leave. His coaching is not the issue.

[H82Lose]

10 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I don't disagree with everything, but there are some problematic things.

1.  How many international tournaments do the top guys in the world do?  Our top guys?  Not much more than 1.

2.  He's had Japanese partners in Iowa for most of the last year.  Otoguro?  Maybe someone else?

3.  Wait... you're saying he is treated fragile?  Maybe, but the rest of the world thinks he's too beaten up.

Why would Wyatt go to U of Iowa for six months to roll with Dreshaun?

Not to mention, his workout partner last summer was Drake.  

Joey Cruz is gone.

So other than being uninformed and petty, your take is halfway decent.

Damn, I did not know Joey Cruz was gone!? Where is he at now? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

Damn, I did not know Joey Cruz was gone!? Where is he at now? 

I may have made a mistake, and if so, I apologize.  I couldn't find anything, so he may have elected to stay, despite being recruited over.

[H82Lose]

19 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I may have made a mistake, and if so, I apologize.  I couldn't find anything, so he may have elected to stay, despite being recruited over.

Yeah, I am not doubting you, I will look later and see what is going on. It would make sense to transfer for sure. 

[Gene Mills Fan]

Spencer needs to see more diverse European styles guys as powerful as him. but I think there was a governor on him seeing too much physicality after the injuries. I think the predictions that he's a gold lock add detrimental pressure that increases when he sees adversity.  He lost to a European champion not the end of the world 

Edited 8 hours ago by Gene Mills Fan

[Truzzcat]

11 hours ago, BAC said:

My takeaway from watching him today is he needs better and more diverse practice partners.  And he needs to compete more in general. 

In the Harutyunyan match, Spencer looked unprepared and flat-footed, almost like he miscalculated what his strength would enable him to get away with given (e.g. the first and last takedowns).  He looked unprepared for the level of resistance he'd get on his shots, and seemed to either underestimate his opponent's pressure or he just wasn't accustomed to it. He seemed totally unaware that Harutyunyan laces the opposite direction. It didn't expose Spencer as inferior, just unready.

When I first saw it, I thought he looked like a guy who was just getting the rust off after a long injury.  After rewatching it, it occurred to me that he actually looked more like a guy who'd been roughing up low-level competition in the practice room, and hadn't been getting either the quality or variety of high-end looks you need going into worlds, where every match is high-caliber competition. 

Sadly, this jibes with what we know of his training situation.  It seems like they have him all locked down in Iowa City, rolling around with mediocre college kids, focused on drilling and keeping Spencer's confidence up.  It's like he thought that if he just does the stuff he uses to pin Dru Ayala and Joey Cruz all day, he'll be fine. (Drake's off-limits, last I knew.)  It's embarrassing.  What's more, from the Olympics till now, how many international tournaments has he been in?  One?  Come on man.

Maybe instead of constantly telling him how great he is, Brands should get him some practice partners that can give him some of the looks he saw from today, and rough him up. Sharpen him with iron, not clay.  Use those donor bucks to throw him into every international tournament you can find so he knows the field.  Stop treating Spencer like he's this fragile vase, about to break at any moment. 

If Brands can't find someone to bring in who can push him, maybe do some sort of 6-month club swap, e.g. send him to Stillwater to roll around with Fix, RBY, Sakamoto, Figueroa, Spratley and Jax. Maybe OSU can send over Wyatt for 6 months to roll around with Dreshaun and Keuter. 

If Brands can't bring himself to extract his claws from his prized pupil, even for a few months, then I hope Spencer realizes that he needs a change of scenery if he's going to succeed.  Let's hope he sits next to Zahid on the plane ride home, and Zahid can tell him all about it.

I would agree but I know he has brought in both otogoru brothers for months as well as vito at times. He also started traveling to train and working with the training lab guy. They seem to be giving him what he needs. I recall in a recent interview saying "I wish people could see me in practice I am a lot better in practice". I also wonder if he bought into everyone saying he was going to steam roll the field so the moment he hit adversity he was not able to recover.

[AgaveMaria]

Lee has the recurring nightmare playing in his head: How can I afford another Title loss? So, not getting to the Title match saves him the worry & more to the point - he is not on the hook to buy his mom anoher pair of eyeglasses.

[OMW]

20 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Lee is the GOAT of Iowa wrestling. 

you mis-spelled Tom Brands

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, AgaveMaria said:

Lee has the recurring nightmare playing in his head: How can I afford another Title loss? So, not getting to the Title match saves him the worry & more to the point - he is not on the hook to buy his mom anoher pair of eyeglasses.

This makes no sense.

I think you are slightly confused, or have a bad memory.

[CHROMEBIRD]

16 hours ago, BAC said:

In the Harutyunyan match, Spencer looked unprepared and flat-footed, almost like he miscalculated what his strength would enable him to get away with given (e.g. the first and last takedowns).  He looked unprepared for the level of resistance he'd get on his shots, and seemed to either underestimate his opponent's pressure or he just wasn't accustomed to it. He seemed totally unaware that Harutyunyan laces the opposite direction. It didn't expose Spencer as inferior, just unready.

This part. One of the most helpful things Brands could do for Spencer right now is watch tape with him. Lee is notorious for spending exactly zero time gameplanning against opponents, and it's a skill that he's never developed. While it's a flex for sure to just do your own thing and force wrestlers to have to adjust to you, this approach has bitten him in the past and now we're talking about World level best-of-the-best caliber competition. Going into matches blind and having to figure things out in real-time puts him at an automatic disadvantage no matter how good you are.

It was a good move by Brands to allow the Otoguros to come train with Lee & DeSanto, but he needs to be smarter with his "don't overthink it" philosophy. Yes, Spencer shouldn't overthink all the what-ifs and let anxiety take over his game. OTOH, I think it would help to go a level deeper and study some film and learn a thing of two. Hell, bring in Kozak, have him teach Spencer how to analyze and break down match footage. That would be a tremendous help.

[BAC]

15 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Why is everyone, including myself earlier this morning ("he will put up points but not a concern"), discounting Haruntunyan? He has a track record of bringing it and lights up the scoreboard. Yeah we all, myself loudest, thought Spencer Lee = Gold or bust. But everyone runs into a buzzsaw. Micic in 23 is a prime example. It happens and worlds is 10x tougher than olympics because the brackets are absolutely nails. 
 

I do think a change of scenery would be not bad, but Iowa would be petty as $hit about it after he signed his competitive life over to them. I also think that Bob can't buy the partners he needs, which is why he should leave. His coaching is not the issue.

Haruntunyan is super legit, no doubt.  He was definitely one of the favorites for gold, and there was very little reason, on paper, to say Lee was better than him.  Lee was hyped, the Armenian was not, and people overlooked him for no good reason. That part I agree with.

That said, writing off Lee's loss by saying Haruntunyan is "just that amazingly good" isn't particularly convincing. Haruntunyan got pinned in the semis, and barely squeaked by RBY in the 3rd place match. Just a quarter-second more, and RBY would've been awarded the winning TD.  Haruntunyan lost to Fix 10-0 in Fix's silver medal run of a few years ago, and lost at the Olympics to Abdullaev, who Spencer beat.

I guess it's possible Haruntunyan was just a bad matchup for Lee, but I dunno. It's hard to look at Spencer's match against Haruntunyan, and how he got outwrestled in every position, and not conclude that this tournament's version of Spencer is worse than the Olympics version of him. And it's hard not to expect that trajectory will continue, or at least not reverse itself, if he/Brands doesn't make a change.

Edited 1 hour ago by BAC

[BAC]

52 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

This part. One of the most helpful things Brands could do for Spencer right now is watch tape with him. Lee is notorious for spending exactly zero time gameplanning against opponents, and it's a skill that he's never developed. While it's a flex for sure to just do your own thing and force wrestlers to have to adjust to you, this approach has bitten him in the past and now we're talking about World level best-of-the-best caliber competition. Going into matches blind and having to figure things out in real-time puts him at an automatic disadvantage no matter how good you are.

It was a good move by Brands to allow the Otoguros to come train with Lee & DeSanto, but he needs to be smarter with his "don't overthink it" philosophy. Yes, Spencer shouldn't overthink all the what-ifs and let anxiety take over his game. OTOH, I think it would help to go a level deeper and study some film and learn a thing of two. Hell, bring in Kozak, have him teach Spencer how to analyze and break down match footage. That would be a tremendous help.

I wasn't aware Spencer doesn't scout his opponents, or that his coaches don't insist he do so as part of his training. If that's true, that's coaching malpractice.  This isn't some dual against Iowa Central Community College.

[Pinnacle]

Spencer is incredibly strong, but at this level he seems not very flexible nor very quick. I think it just gets harder for him as each year passes. I'd bet against him being our 2028 rep. 

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

Haruntunyan is super legit, no doubt.  He was definitely one of the favorites for gold, and there was very little reason, on paper, to say Lee was better than him.  Lee was hyped, the Armenian was not, and people overlooked him for no good reason. That part I agree with.

That said, writing off Lee's loss by saying Haruntunyan is "just that amazingly good" isn't particularly convincing. Haruntunyan got pinned in the semis, and barely squeaked by RBY in the 3rd place match. Just a quarter-second more, and RBY would've been awarded the winning TD.  Haruntunyan lost to Fix 10-0 in Fix's silver medal run of a few years ago, and lost at the Olympics to Abdullaev, who Spencer beat.

I guess it's possible Haruntunyan was just a bad matchup for Lee, but I dunno. It's hard to look at Spencer's match against Haruntunyan, and how he got outwrestled in every position, and not conclude that this tournament's version of Spencer is worse than the Olympics version of him. And it's hard not to expect that trajectory will continue, or at least not reverse itself, if he/Brands doesn't make a change.

Someone compared it to when Dake got buzzsawed by Kadi at the 2020ne olympics and was left scratching his head. I would strongly agree with that. I also think that if they meet again, Lee will have a better gameplan. I'm not getting off the Lee bandwagon just yet.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

I wasn't aware Spencer doesn't scout his opponents, or that his coaches don't insist he do so as part of his training. If that's true, that's coaching malpractice.  This isn't some dual against Iowa Central Community College.

Funny, I heard Zahid say the same.  He prefers to play pickleball.

[ionel]

5 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Funny, I heard Zahid say the same.  He prefers to play pickleball.

Good plan! 

[CHROMEBIRD]

8 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Funny, I heard Zahid say the same.  He prefers to play pickleball.

I heard Ionel has a new pickleball training partner. Coincidence?

[CHROMEBIRD]

34 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Spencer is incredibly strong, but at this level he seems not very flexible nor very quick. I think it just gets harder for him as each year passes. I'd bet against him being our 2028 rep. 

Sounds like International Metcalf syndrome. I still like Spencer's chances to be our guy in 2028 and a World medalist before then. Plenty of time.