If you are 23 or older when AA or win NCAAs

[Dark Energy]

@scourge165 - I appreciate much of what you wrote.  Thanks.  I do recognize that the paths of people’s lives varies.  When it comes down to it, I just don’t like the warping of college sports.  I’m usually pretty practical about things, but I’m a bit of a purist on this.  

When it comes to college sports I feel that the tail is wagging the dog.  
 

[scourge165]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:36 PM, fishbane said:

Yeah, I thought the dates were a little too early for the Vietnam draft but it could have been voluntary military service. The 5 years off is just one of the interesting facts about this career though.  There are many aspects that make it fairly unique.

1. Two-time NCAA that never won a state title in high school.  There can't be very many of those. Keith Gavin is a 1x champ that did that.  Don't know any other 2, 3, or 4xers off the top of my head.  
2. A multi time NCAA champion that transferred schools.  There can't be too many of those. TJ Jaworsky, Nick Suriano, Brent Metcalf, Cary Kolat.
3. A multiple time NCAA champion that won a subsequent title at a lower weight than a previous title.  There are only 7 of those. Nick Suriano also among them.
4. An NCAA champion that took multiple years off in the middle of their college career.  Nick Suriano, Max Dean, and Yianni D. didn't wrestle in NCAA competition for two consecutive years.
5. Winning NCAAs at the age of 26 years 7mo puts him amongst the oldest NCAA champions.  The oldest is Charlie Jones who was 27 when he won a title in 1993 wrestling for Purdue.

Tim Hartung MAY have been one. I know he went on a 2 year run where he won 2 and I believe was undefeated, took a 3rd as a Soph and as a Freshmen....lost to Les Gutches(not in a close match, but then...I thought he lost on the backside to the 4th place finisher).

The only reason it comes to mind is I remember growing up in HS going one of those Minnesota camps with my Cousin(28 days of hell just because that was baseball season and I missed a lot of it). 

But as the story goes he was from a little D3 school in Wisconsin(certainly not known for it's HS Wrestling talent at the time...it still ain't Penn, but it is looking better). But anyway, he sent all these clippings to Minnesota, his mother Wrote, he wanted so badly to go there. Never heard anything back. I wanna say there happened to be a stud that he kept running into(not Garrett Lowney, but a guy who was a multi-time Fargo Champ and Hartung just couldn't get past him).

 

So Minnesota is recruiting this other Wrestler, they don't say who. Robinson sends a couple kids out there and he gets just throttled by Hartung. Teched in the round robin at Fargo. Don't believe he won it, but they saw the talent and he didn't have a former D1 Wrestler working with him, so he was raw.

So Robinson asks 'how'd so and so look,' and one of the other coaches says, "well, he looked alright, but remember that guy who's Mom has been sending us all those clippings all year? HE looked like a stud."

 

The message was...ya know, don't worry about who says no, be persistent, uh....you never know who's watching when you're Wrestling, just all those things about how you're supposed to behave. 

 

 

Anyway, it was a good story...I COULD be wrong, but I know he went 3/1/1 at Minn. The year he took the 3rd was that match between John Kadding...one of the toughest dude's I've seen Wrestle(I was a kid, so I thought perhaps I lionized him, but going back and watching him Wrestle with a torn ACL and...no, I didn't).

1999 by the way...may be the toughest group of Champs. I know I'm off topic now, but Sanderson(little brother losing a tight one to Guerrero in OT, Abas, Neal at HWT, TJ Williams, Cunningham, Pritzlaff...and then some of the matches. Hunter losing to Abas who had a 3-3 tiebreaker. 

Incredible Wrestlers. 

 

That'd be a good thread, best group of 10 champs.

[fishbane]

35 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Tim Hartung MAY have been one. 

He was a 2x NCAA champ.  1x State champ.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/2068/One-on-One-with-Tim-Hartung?

36 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

1999 by the way...may be the toughest group of Champs. I know I'm off topic now, but Sanderson(little brother losing a tight one to Guerrero in OT, Abas, Neal at HWT, TJ Williams, Cunningham, Pritzlaff...and then some of the matches. Hunter losing to Abas who had a 3-3 tiebreaker. 

Cody is Cael's older brother.  So little only in the sense of being physically smaller to Cael, but three years older.  He lost to Guerrero twice in the OT in the NCAA finals.

[scourge165]

18 minutes ago, fishbane said:

He was a 2x NCAA champ.  1x State champ.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/2068/One-on-One-with-Tim-Hartung?

Cody is Cael's older brother.  So little only in the sense of being physically smaller to Cael, but three years older.  He lost to Guerrero twice in the OT in the NCAA finals.

Ahh...ok. Must have been at that point in the story, he wasn't yet a State Champ which is why they were dismissive of him. Still, just a 1X Champ in D3 in Wisconsin...you don't expect a 3/1/1. 

And yes, of course Cody is older. I guess just looking at the bracket seeing him losing in OT, it just kinda rolled off the tongue. He's also kinda forgotten about. He was "only" a 2X runner up and lost a couple of brutal matches to some studs...but when your brother is Cael? Probably quite a bit harder for Cyler though. They're all working now in some capacity with Cael, right?

I know Cody's kinda the #3 at PSU and the other two are running the Sanderson Wrestling Academy, right?

[fishbane]

On 1/29/2023 at 7:18 AM, scourge165 said:

If I could answer this as I was a 17 year old Sr by graduation...I think being held back another year would have been extremely beneficial. Not socially(athletically of course)...but academically. Also just maturity. Particularly if it would have been after 8th grade. I got into a pretty good accident in 8th grade, missed half the year, got a tutor and then feel so far behind in math, it took me 4 years to catch up at all and even then in College, I needed the air of tutors to help me with Calc and a couple other classes.

Might not have made a difference....but Math is THAT class, once you fall behind, it's so hard to catch up.  

Academic struggles are the most sound reason to repeat a grade.  There are ways to catch up like tutors, summer school,  and independent study.  If the struggles are only in one subject that is less of a reason to be held back in middle school and high school.  If you don't get algebra in 8th grade, you can still take that class in high school.   You might not learn calculus in high school, but you'll be ready to learn it in college.

 

When academic struggles are manufactured like with Cary Kolat it seems like a waste of time.  In 8th grade Kolat's dad told him to pay attention, but fail intentionally.  He received 4 Fs, 1 A, and repeated 8th grade.  

Taking Kolat as an example, holding him back in 8th grade undoubtably held back his academic progress, but it also probably held back his athletic progress.  He placed 3rd at the Midlands as a high school sophomore.  He was 4th at the Olympic trials in 1992 when he was a high school senior.  If he had not intentionally failed 8th grade he could have been wrestling in those trials after a year in a college room.  Do you think he could have made more progress by 1992 if he had traded that extra year in a middle school room for one in a college room?  Kolat probably thinks so

Quote

College has come to look a lot like paradise to Kolat, 18. He has narrowed his choices to Penn State and Minnesota. For now he frets that while he trains with boys, his rivals for the single berth per weight class on the '92 U.S. Olympic team are honing their technique against equals. "I got too far ahead," he says. "I've been at this level for a while. I think about that a lot, and I get paranoid."

Though trying to make an Olympic team in high school may be a fairly unique problem, the principle is more universally applicable.  Holding someone back in 8th grade holds back their wrestling progress too.  Take any wrestler in 8th grade.  Pick a date more than 1 year in the future.  The goal is to make this individual the best possible wrestler by that date.  Is repeating 8th grade an optimal strategy for this challenge?  Staying in middle school and wrestling 7th/8th graders or not at all because they aren't eligible, compared with spending that year in a high school room competing against 9th-12th graders.  Almost universally the choice will be to go directly to high school.

The reason why it seems like holding a wrestler back can have an athletic benefit is because the goalposts are moved at the same time.  The question isn't how can I be the best wrestler possible 4 years from now.  It's comparing your potential results 4 years from now with your potential results 5 years from now against a field 1 year less experienced on average.

[11986]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:36 PM, fishbane said:

Yeah, I thought the dates were a little too early for the Vietnam draft but it could have been voluntary military service. The 5 years off is just one of the interesting facts about this career though.  There are many aspects that make it fairly unique.

1. Two-time NCAA that never won a state title in high school.  There can't be very many of those. Keith Gavin is a 1x champ that did that.  Don't know any other 2, 3, or 4xers off the top of my head.  
2. A multi time NCAA champion that transferred schools.  There can't be too many of those. TJ Jaworsky, Nick Suriano, Brent Metcalf, Cary Kolat.
3. A multiple time NCAA champion that won a subsequent title at a lower weight than a previous title.  There are only 7 of those. Nick Suriano also among them.
4. An NCAA champion that took multiple years off in the middle of their college career.  Nick Suriano, Max Dean, and Yianni D. didn't wrestle in NCAA competition for two consecutive years.
5. Winning NCAAs at the age of 26 years 7mo puts him amongst the oldest NCAA champions.  The oldest is Charlie Jones who was 27 when he won a title in 1993 wrestling for Purdue.

1. Stephen Neal 2x champ, pretty sure he never won California state title in HS. 

2. Few more that come to mind - Mocco, Sammie Henson, Mark Schultz

[Smsu150]

9 minutes ago, 11986 said:

1. Stephen Neal 2x champ, pretty sure he never won California state title in HS. 

2. Few more that come to mind - Mocco, Sammie Henson, Mark Schultz

Sammie Henson was a 3X state champ from Missouri.  He took 4th in the Olympic Trials (Greco) as a senior in high school. 

[11986]

1 minute ago, Smsu150 said:

Sammie Henson was a 3X state champ from Missouri.  He took 4th in the Olympic Trials (Greco) as a senior in high school. 

did he make top 8 while at Mizzou before the transfer to Clemson? 

[Smsu150]

Just now, Smsu150 said:

Sammie Henson was a 3X state champ from Missouri.  He took 4th in the Olympic Trials (Greco) as a senior in high school. 

 

Just now, Smsu150 said:

Sammie Henson was a 3X state champ from Missouri.  He took 4th in the Olympic Trials (Greco) as a senior in high school. 

Sorry, I see you were replying to the transfer question.   

[scourge165]

15 hours ago, fishbane said:

Academic struggles are the most sound reason to repeat a grade.  There are ways to catch up like tutors, summer school,  and independent study.  If the struggles are only in one subject that is less of a reason to be held back in middle school and high school.  If you don't get algebra in 8th grade, you can still take that class in high school.   You might not learn calculus in high school, but you'll be ready to learn it in college.

 

When academic struggles are manufactured like with Cary Kolat it seems like a waste of time.  In 8th grade Kolat's dad told him to pay attention, but fail intentionally.  He received 4 Fs, 1 A, and repeated 8th grade.  

Taking Kolat as an example, holding him back in 8th grade undoubtably held back his academic progress, but it also probably held back his athletic progress.  He placed 3rd at the Midlands as a high school sophomore.  He was 4th at the Olympic trials in 1992 when he was a high school senior.  If he had not intentionally failed 8th grade he could have been wrestling in those trials after a year in a college room.  Do you think he could have made more progress by 1992 if he had traded that extra year in a middle school room for one in a college room?  Kolat probably thinks so

Though trying to make an Olympic team in high school may be a fairly unique problem, the principle is more universally applicable.  Holding someone back in 8th grade holds back their wrestling progress too.  Take any wrestler in 8th grade.  Pick a date more than 1 year in the future.  The goal is to make this individual the best possible wrestler by that date.  Is repeating 8th grade an optimal strategy for this challenge?  Staying in middle school and wrestling 7th/8th graders or not at all because they aren't eligible, compared with spending that year in a high school room competing against 9th-12th graders.  Almost universally the choice will be to go directly to high school.

The reason why it seems like holding a wrestler back can have an athletic benefit is because the goalposts are moved at the same time.  The question isn't how can I be the best wrestler possible 4 years from now.  It's comparing your potential results 4 years from now with your potential results 5 years from now against a field 1 year less experienced on average.

First with Kolat...he's still remembered as the Greatest Wrestler in Pennsylvania History and arguably the greatest ever. 

Was he actually going to doing anything in 1992? I know he was also training with more than just Middle School kids. I don't know how to measure that, how to quantify the value of being a 4X undefeated State Champ and the best HS Wrestler in the best HS Wrestling State, but there's some.

 

As for my Academics, I think the Math issue is really prevalent with the majority of Students. As I said, I thought I feel behind, but by the time I got to College, I was at least able to still pass Math 111(which was Trig and Pre-Calc). That was like this MASSIVE issue for most of the people I knew who just needed a C- in that class to graduate. You should be able to come out of HS and pass a lower level Trig class without too much issue or else you're falling behind. And if you fall behind one year in Math, you're falling behind in Chemistry and Physics and other classes needed it you want to be an Engineer for example.  

 

I don't really think I have a strong opinion on the way Kolat did it either. I know other kids who did it. Mark Hall did it, I remember Jesse Thielke did it because he was too small to Wrestle as a Freshmen otherwise. That makes sense to me. Or at least as much sense as kids settling in one sport by the time they're 6-7 years old and not playing any other sport and having them spend 4 days a week training all year round until the season starts, then it's 5 days with the HS and a couple more nights a week with a club(usually a Sunday). 

We've probably gotten waaay too over the top with the emphasis to be great at a young age...and at the same time, kids are reaping the rewards. Has there ever been another time when Freshmen were able to walk in and compete like they can right now?

 

I'll leave it  up to the parents. Despite a pretty serious accident that kept me at home most of 8th grade, I was still a good student. Probably not as good of an athlete as a Freshmen, but...whatever, I was never going to win 4 titles, so...oh well. 

One Cousin repeated 8th grade...he DID win 4 when he would have otherwise been too small and he'd said he felt like it gave him a chance to catch up. And other guys get burned out because their friends are all moving on and now you're in a whole new class. So...let the parents and the kids make the decision, but if it's exclusively so you're better the next year, I'd tend to frown upon it(but not too much as I don't find it to be my place).

[fishbane]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:46 PM, 11986 said:

2. Few more that come to mind - Mocco, Sammie Henson, Mark Schultz

I suspect multiple NCAA champ transfers is probably the least unique on the list.  Schultz was also nearly a non-state champ.  He won states his senior year and had never won a wresting tournament in his life before the first round of the post season his senior year.

[ionel]

17 minutes ago, fishbane said:

 nearly a non-state champ.  He won states ...

what???!!!  

[fishbane]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

what???!!!  

Not the best way to put it.  The path Schultz had to win states was likely more unique than a NCAA/multiple NCAA champ that not winning states/national preps.    

Or are you just referring to State being singular and States being plural?  Can't be on the fence with that?

[ionel]

1 minute ago, fishbane said:

Not the best way to put it.  The path Schultz had to win states was likely more unique than a NCAA/multiple NCAA champ that not winning states/national preps.    

Or are you just referring to State being singular and States being plural?  Can't be on the fence with that?

If we are allowed to participate in "states" then I was a "non-state" champ in multiple states (more than I can count) which guess makes me a non-states champ. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, ionel said:

If we are allowed to participate in "states" then I was a "non-state" champ in multiple states (more than I can count) which guess makes me a non-states champ. 

I don't know anything about "state" or "states."

I just know that I am not a fan of DUELS.

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I don't know anything about "state" or "states."

I just know that I am not a fan of DUELS.

you've always had that burr in your hip ...

[MPhillips]

10 hours ago, ionel said:

what???!!!  

How many "states" were there?

[ionel]

1 minute ago, MPhillips said:

How many "states" were there?

heard from a reliable source 57

[MPhillips]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

heard from a reliable source 57

Checks out...

[boconnell]

I just hope none of the over 23 wrestlers find out about this thread.  It would crush them if an internet commenter didn't value their accomplishment.  I could see many of them simply returning the all american medal.

[LJB]

nazaryan and sharshenbekov wrestle in the senior finals of greco at worlds in serbia last year...

20 and 23/4...

greco world championship...

no excuses...

[D3UC157]

Sorry to get off topic by asking something on topic..

Who is the oldest wrestler to AA? .. to win a title?

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

Sorry to get off topic by asking something on topic..

Who is the oldest wrestler to AA? .. to win a title?

Think that came up in another topic couple weeks ago, bet Wkn knows ... paging @Wrestleknownothing!

[fishbane]

21 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

Sorry to get off topic by asking something on topic..

Who is the oldest wrestler to AA? .. to win a title?

 

Oldest is Charles Jones who won NCAAs in 1992 at 27 years old.  I think military service inturrupted his education.  The youngest is Pat Milkovich at 18.25 years.  Not sure about AA

[Wrestleknownothing]

50 minutes ago, ionel said:

 

Oops. Missed tbat he already replied.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Wrestleknownothing