Flo's Quarter-Century Team (Recency bias?)

[BAC]

7 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

ok but Dake 1,1,1,1 is not comparable to Burroughs DNP, 3, 1, 1

Except Burroughs as a senior was about as good as any NCAA wrestler, at any weight, over the past 25 years, arguably behind only upperclassman Cael. Does that count more than DNP'ing as a freshman? We also know Burroughs owned Dake for years in freestyle, without ever really altering his technique all that much from folkstyle (i.e. all takedowns).  I don't think there's any serious question that Burroughs as a senior at 165 would've been strongly favored in folk over Dake as a senior at 165. If that's not enough, so be it, but to me, I just can't overlook how good Jordan got by the end of his career.  

[BAC]

17 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

No...

Your questions suck...

I wouldn't disagree with any of the rest...

I know, I hate my questions too.  It feels insane to not have Snyder first team.  

[Jason Bryant]

TJ Williams only lost one match, but that's because he didn't wrestle frosh year and that counts.
Juergens and Schwab shouldn't make the cut. Look at their historical comps- just not fair and it greatly undermines their talent.
Brent "I lost a match every year, and I lost a year" Metcalf does not belong in the conversation. Sorry not sorry.

TJ lost at least once as a freshman in junior college.

[BAC]

19 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

TJ lost at least once as a freshman in junior college.

7 times, according to this article here.  Then he redshirted.

But man, from RS soph year on, he was nearly unbeatable.  (Even though it always seemed like he could widen the gap if he really felt like it.)

[bnwtwg]

51 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

TJ lost at least once as a freshman in junior college.

I am an old and my Illinois bias will never acknowledge your knowledge!

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

I mostly agree with this, but there's sort of a psychological barrier here (besides the fangirl stuff):

1. Do you really think of Snyder as a HWT?

2. Would you really pick Snyder over Gable in a folk match at HWT?  

It's tempting to slot in Snyder at 197, even though he lost in his only finals appearance at that weight. But I assume they'll put him at HWT where he'll be runner up to Gable, and they'll justify it as saying that it doesn't mean Gable was better, only that he was better as a HWT since Snyder's sort of a 'tweener. Not sure I even disagree with that, though it seems crazy for an all-time-great like Snyder to be 2nd team.

Weight classes exist for a reason, except in the US for an inferior domestic style.

[bnwtwg]

But anyways Snyder was so lame that he only beat 3x champ Cox (2x world champ in freestyle), 2x and reigning champ Gwiz (2x world medalist), and 3x AA Coon (reigning senior silver medal).

Other than his Olympic run, Steveson only beat Mason Parris who to his credit was only able to get a senior bronze after Steveson stepped away. But nah. The hit list is nowhere near comparable. ESPECIALLY because Steveson, who should be in his prime but chose other endeavors (which I support!!) but isn't, came back to wrestling and lost in the style we are talking about.

He. Lost.

Was he NCAA? Yes.

Did he lose? Yes.

Did he have a better NCAA resume? No.

 

[Wrestle620]

RBY on their top 4 for 133 is insane recency bias.

To me the biggest snub is Juergens. His career losses at NCAAs were Teague Moore and Eric Larkin (who he also beat later in that tournament for 3rd). He’s the only person to beat Abas at the tourney (twice at 118 in 1998), and also had wins over Johnny Thompson, Aaron Holker, and Cody Sanderson. The win over Sanderson clinched the title for Iowa over Iowa State in 2000.

[bnwtwg]

RBY deserves a spot for his contribution to the sport. He taught us all that a person can win with one arm tied behind their back.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

How does the voting work?  How are they scoring it?

I think they said "fan votes 75%, Flo staff 25%"

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I'm actually somewhat amazed that Flo realized the quarter century starts in 2001.

[PortaJohn]

4 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think they said "fan votes 75%, Flo staff 25%"

That's wild.  Might put Hendrickson in the driver seat to claim Heavyweight.  Bo Bassett for P4P greatest of all time

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 hours ago, BAC said:

I'm pretty sure it's intended to be a pure folkstyle list.  If it weren't, it'd be a sin to not have Cejudo or Gilman on the 125 list, as their freestyle accomplishments are better than anyone else here being considered.

That said, I feel like it's defensible to look to freestyle as one factor to break a tie between two guys from different eras, who have otherwise comparable folkstyle stats.  Especially where they didn't alter their style much from folk to free, and still picked up medals close to their college years.

It is an NCAA champs list, but they intentionally didn't mention whether freestyle results were included as a criteria.  They said they were going to leave it up to the individual to determine if they wanted to include freestyle.  

They also did not specify if it were a "best version of this wrestler" or "best career" team.  Members of the Flo staff said they were definitely considering "best version" in some comes over "best career."

So the criteria were intentionally ambiguous, except you needed to win a title b/w 01 and 25.

[Jon_Kozak]

12 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

2023 Vito Arujau is best 133 pounder I've ever seen.  @Jon_Kozak what is the criteria?  

No criteria other than who you think is the best 133-pounder of the last 25 years. We thought that's what would make it more engaging because everyone will have their own criteria on how they define who the best is.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, Jon_Kozak said:

No criteria other than who you think is the best 133-pounder of the last 25 years. We thought that's what would make it more engaging because everyone will have their own criteria on how they define who the best is.

And I liked this aspect of the poll

Edited Tuesday at 01:54 PM by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Jason Bryant]

11 hours ago, BAC said:

7 times, according to this article here.  Then he redshirted.

But man, from RS soph year on, he was nearly unbeatable.  (Even though it always seemed like he could widen the gap if he really felt like it.)

Nice find. I'd never actually seen his JC year record posted anywhere. I know he lost to longtime Greco national teamer Glenn Garrison (Clackamas) in the 97 finals. 

[nhs67]

The thing that annoyed me about their 133lb rankings was that the way it was mentioned that Arujau not only defeated RBY but won a Worlds title in comparison to how Stieber technically beat Oliver (and not a mention of his Worlds title).

Obvious bias.

 

Actually just re-read it and no mention of beating Oliver in the summary part, either.

Clearly made up mind.

Edited Tuesday at 03:48 PM by nhs67

[Winners Circle]

The problem is some people look at this as "who the had the best career" and others look at it as "who was the best in their prime or at their peak". And Flo did not really clarify which way they're defining it. I'll do prime. 

• 125: Spencer
• 133: JO
• 141: Stieber
• 149: Dake
• 157: JB
• 165: DT
• 174: Askren
• 184: Ruth
• 197: Nickal
• 285: Gable

Yes, I did some jockeying around to get Dake, DT, and JB in the lineup. But I think it's fair. Dake's domination of Molinaro in the finals was impressive. 157 JB dominated a returning finalist in Poeta. And senior year DT was ultra dominant all year. I also considered Cole Konrad over Gable, but peak Gable (before the WWE etc.) was unreal.

Edited Tuesday at 04:03 PM by Winners Circle

[Gus]

30 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

The problem is some people look at this as "who the had the best career" and others look at it as "who was the best in their prime or at their peak". And Flo did not really clarify which way they're defining it. I'll do prime. 

• 125: Spencer
• 133: JO
• 141: Stieber
• 149: Dake
• 157: JB
• 165: DT
• 174: Askren
• 184: Ruth
• 197: Nickal
• 285: Gable

Yes, I did some jockeying around to get Dake, DT, and JB in the lineup. But I think it's fair. Dake's domination of Molinaro in the finals was impressive. 157 JB dominated a returning finalist in Poeta. And senior year DT was ultra dominant all year. I also considered Cole Konrad over Gable, but peak Gable (before the WWE etc.) was unreal.

You have Ruth and Nickal over Cael, eh?

Edited Tuesday at 04:35 PM by Gus

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

54 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

The thing that annoyed me about their 133lb rankings was that the way it was mentioned that Arujau not only defeated RBY but won a Worlds title in comparison to how Stieber technically beat Oliver (and not a mention of his Worlds title).

Obvious bias.

 

Actually just re-read it and no mention of beating Oliver in the summary part, either.

Clearly made up mind.

Very misleading.

[okokzach]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

The thing that annoyed me about their 133lb rankings was that the way it was mentioned that Arujau not only defeated RBY but won a Worlds title in comparison to how Stieber technically beat Oliver (and not a mention of his Worlds title).

Obvious bias.

 

Actually just re-read it and no mention of beating Oliver in the summary part, either.

Clearly made up mind.

if it makes you feel better, 95% of voters won't read the article before voting

[Jason Bryant]

9 minutes ago, okokzach said:

if it makes you feel better, 95% of voters won't read the article before voting

Iowa's also undefeated in fan votes since Tim Berners-Lee. 

[JimmyCinnabon]

15 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Burroughs was the best 65 his senior year. I know this because he won a senior world title. Unlike David Taylor who, stop me if you've heard this story before, could only win when a better guy wasn't at his weight anymore. Historical bonus points mean nada.

I guess it matters how you are grading these guys. Are we talking about the best college folkstyle wrestlers? Best freestyle guys? Do we combine the two? Because quite frankly I don't like to compare freestyle with folkstyle success. They are too different. A guy can mop the floor with a guy in freestyle and that same guy can mop the floor with them in folkstyle. If we are talking about the best at each college weight class then I am only going to use college folkstyle results to grade guys.

[Winners Circle]

1 hour ago, Gus said:

You have Ruth and Nickal over Cael, eh?

Oversight on my part. I overlooked Cael since he started his career in the 90s. Slide Cael in at 197 and remove Nickal.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, okokzach said:

if it makes you feel better, 95% of voters won't read the article before voting

Honestly, it kind of does. 

Someone at Flo was writing the article based off the internal results of the vote.  Makes sense to me, actually.