Lee bump up vs RBY

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, MPhillips said:

Not exactly WKN. He questioned more than Lee's desire to win a dual.

"But about that legacy. How does Lee want to be remembered?  As the guy from the other weekend, who got salty at his coaches for having to wrestle a teammate, and bow isn’t willing to bump up to help his team win a dual? Or as the “excuses are for wusses” guy who put it on the line for glory and a big dual win?"

That is likely his motive for the post. But his premise is his first sentence.

[MPhillips]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

That is likely his motive for the post. But his premise is his first sentence.

Okay WKN...

[Holtfan]

If he wants to be remember, why not having him wrestle both 125 and 133 in the dual?  

Oh...sorry....I thought we were discussing ridiculous reasons Spenser Lee needs to impress the fan base. 

[ionel]

Tom & Carl are both in the DDM camp so why would Tom do this and why would Carl care.  But maybe ... just maybe Spencer F Lee is a true believer in e4w and will intentionally miss weight at 125 thus ... 

[Offthemat]

They could wrestle it as an exhibition. 

[Perry]

Lee and brands want nothing to do with this match. Rby would destroy Lee and possibly break him (literally) in the process. If Lee were healthy it would be a fun match, but I'd still favor rby.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Perry said:

Lee and brands want nothing to do with this match. Rby would destroy Lee and possibly break him (literally) in the process. If Lee were healthy it would be a fun match, but I'd still favor rby.

he isn't "healthy," how so?

[MPhillips]

6 minutes ago, Perry said:

Rby would destroy Lee and possibly break him (literally) in the process.

Stop it...

[1032004]

Fun with common opponents looking at only since 2021:

Lee teched Ragusin, RBY won by decision 3 times 

Lee pinned Ramos (yes I know…), RBY won 11-3

I think it’d be a good match.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

According to Iowa fans Lee MAJORS RBY.  Steen is a 118 pounder trying to wrestle 125.  Iowa's backup would DEC Steen at minimum, maybe major.  

 

Lee absolutely should bump up as it will yield more team points.

w/o Lee bumping up: 125 Iowa +6 133 Penn State +5

w/ Lee bumping up: 125 Iowa +4 133 Iowa +4

 

Net 8 points for Iowa w/ Lee bumping up versus net 1 point w/o Lee bumping up.  That decides the match for Iowa right there.

[ionel]

17 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Fun with common opponents looking at only since 2021:

Lee teched Ragusin, RBY won by decision 3 times 

Lee pinned Ramos (yes I know…), RBY won 11-3

I think it’d be a good match.

1)RBY beat Fix how many x?

2)Lee lost to Fix  ok it was before 21 & dif style but ...

3)Picc pinned Lee

4)Fix never lost to Picc and see 2&1 above ...

[Perry]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

Stop it...

I say this only because of the timing and Lee just having 2x all surgery. I would be very concerned for his knees especially with rby shot defense and serious length advantage.

[BAC]

Responding to some criticisms …

— fair point about Ayala’s shirt but throw out Ybarra instead, who is still a heavy favorite over Steen. Ybarra just beat Cory Land up at 133 and Steen is way undersized at 125. I have to think Brands has been keeping Ybarra’s weight within reaching distance in the event of a Lee injury. Ybarra likely bonuses Steen. 

— Iowa likely needs this. PSU has 4 champs, another #1 guy, and is favored at 157. Iowa likely needs to take 2 of those to win. Maybe Cass/Warner can take one between them, maybe, but they need another. It’s a huge swing if Lee pulls it off. 

— if they aren’t sure they can have the dual end at 133 so they have the option.  Cael could say no but I doubt he would. Neither he nor Tom are big on duals but both are advocates of filling up the arena. 

— whoever suggested I am questioning Lee’s toughness or team loyalty, you are mistaken. I think Lee would consider doing this precisely because he IS tough and willing to make sacrifices for his team. I’m a big fan. The only hits his reputation have been from inside the Iowa bubble (eg that he is a prima donna who won’t practice with the team and/or is resentful over having to wrestle a teammate), and this is a good way to silence those ungrateful critics. 

— the only one with anything to lose here is RBY. Lee is poised to be a 4x’er, but even Iowa fans aren’t picking him over RBY. If RBY wins, people will have expected it. It Lee wins he has the Hodge locked up, if he loses, it gets thrown out as an off-weight loss, or at worst leads to him sharing the Hodge with Yianni as 1-loss 4xers. Lee should want this. But I don’t think RBY ducks Lee if he comes for him. 

— the reasons to make this happen are countless. Duals don’t matter, but this is effectively the dual meet championship. They are both seniors. The two most decorated wrestlers in a single NCAA match ever. Whatever the outcome, there would be an outpouring of respect for both. It should happen. 

[1032004]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

1)RBY beat Fix how many x?

2)Lee lost to Fix  ok it was before 21 & dif style but ...

3)Picc pinned Lee

4)Fix never lost to Picc and see 2&1 above ...

Hasn’t Lee also beaten Fix?  And yes ages ago/different styles

Picc is irrelevant considering RBY never wrestled him (and neither did Fix in an NCAA match for that matter, but I’m assuming that was a troll comment)

Edited January 15, 2023 by 1032004

[Nailbender]

@BAC

As a wrestling fan the benefits are huge. Maybe there is a scenario where it helps the team win a dual, maybe not.

After that, you lost me. "The only one with anything to lose is RBY", is a worse take than your original. Lee risks nothing to go up a weight after double knee surgery? Risk the reputation he's already earned to make Penn State fans feel better about not being able to put out a worthy opponent at Lee's weight? 

I can get being excited to see a match like that but trying to spin it like it's in Iowa and Lee's best interest is laughable. Spencer Lee, Tom Brands and all Iowa fans want to see a 4 time National champion in the black and gold and the best run they can muster as a team in March.

 

RBY can wrestle him freestyle anytime you want after that.

[BAC]

32 minutes ago, Nailbender said:

@BAC

As a wrestling fan the benefits are huge. Maybe there is a scenario where it helps the team win a dual, maybe not.

After that, you lost me. "The only one with anything to lose is RBY", is a worse take than your original. Lee risks nothing to go up a weight after double knee surgery? Risk the reputation he's already earned to make Penn State fans feel better about not being able to put out a worthy opponent at Lee's weight? 

I can get being excited to see a match like that but trying to spin it like it's in Iowa and Lee's best interest is laughable. Spencer Lee, Tom Brands and all Iowa fans want to see a 4 time National champion in the black and gold and the best run they can muster as a team in March.

 

RBY can wrestle him freestyle anytime you want after that.

You lost me as well, especially with the injury stuff. You seriously don’t think Lee practices with 133lb’ers? Probably 141lb’ers at times too. You’d think I were suggesting that Lee bump up to get bow and arrowed by Dean at 197. It’s especially crazy considering RBY’s style. If Lee loses, it’ll be because RBY is too fast, cutting him after TDs, and Lee never gets on top. RBY will want nothing to do wrestling with Lee on the mat, size difference or not. 

And the “risking his reputation” stuff may matter to insecure Iowa fanboys but I think Lee is too prideful to let it impact him, especially when it may help the team. And it isn’t like Lee hasn’t taken losses before — he has several, but always gets it done in March. I don’t see why this is any different. No one will say “he is a 4xer but he lost to RBY” — not when he has worse losses already on his resume. It’s more likely people would say “he is a 4x’er AND he bumped up a weight to put it on the line against a 2/3x’er when the team needed him.”  He doesn’t even need to win for that to be another feather in his cap. 

And if you are Brands, do you really want to instill doubt in your thoroughbred by telling him you don’t think he can compete with RBY? Brands should be careful how he plays his cards here.

Yes, as a fan I want to see it, but it’s easy to see why it makes sense from Lee and Iowa’s perspective too. I see lots of PSU fans urging Lee to stay at 125, which I get because they are used to giving up 5 or 6 at that weight anyway, only for RBY to even the score. But I hope Cael and company welcome the challenge and agree to start the dual at 141 if Iowa asks, to give this a chance to happen.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 hours ago, Hokeye said:

RBY would kick the sh_t out of Lee.  Too big and too fast.  He is bigger,stronger,faster, and of similar skill sets. Now if you sucked RBY down to 125 that would be a completely different thing.  Lee wins a close decision.

Similar skill sets?  They have almost nothing in common!

[wrestlingphish]

RBY is wrestling a light schedule and if he is going to make a run at 2024 it will need to be at 57kg. Start practicing now.  Owings went down to find Gable. It's a shame RBY wasn't confident enough in himself to do the same. He's already beat Fix so another title at 133 isn't going to change his legacy. Makes you wonder if Cael is protecting his ego.

[wrestlingphish]

9 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The OP's premise was that Iowa might need this to win the dual, not that either wrestler was on a vision quest.

[wrestlingphish]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

The only hits his reputation have been from inside the Iowa bubble (eg that he is a prima donna who won’t practice with the team and/or is resentful over having to wrestle a teammate), and this is a good way to silence those ungrateful critics. 

 

This sentence right here gives away the game that OP's premise/motive/whatever is disingenuous and they are full of shit.

Edited January 15, 2023 by wrestlingphish

[1032004]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

Responding to some criticisms …

— fair point about Ayala’s shirt but throw out Ybarra instead, who is still a heavy favorite over Steen. Ybarra just beat Cory Land up at 133 and Steen is way undersized at 125. I have to think Brands has been keeping Ybarra’s weight within reaching distance in the event of a Lee injury. Ybarra likely bonuses Steen. 

— Iowa likely needs this. PSU has 4 champs, another #1 guy, and is favored at 157. Iowa likely needs to take 2 of those to win. Maybe Cass/Warner can take one between them, maybe, but they need another. It’s a huge swing if Lee pulls it off. 

— if they aren’t sure they can have the dual end at 133 so they have the option.  Cael could say no but I doubt he would. Neither he nor Tom are big on duals but both are advocates of filling up the arena. 

— whoever suggested I am questioning Lee’s toughness or team loyalty, you are mistaken. I think Lee would consider doing this precisely because he IS tough and willing to make sacrifices for his team. I’m a big fan. The only hits his reputation have been from inside the Iowa bubble (eg that he is a prima donna who won’t practice with the team and/or is resentful over having to wrestle a teammate), and this is a good way to silence those ungrateful critics. 

— the only one with anything to lose here is RBY. Lee is poised to be a 4x’er, but even Iowa fans aren’t picking him over RBY. If RBY wins, people will have expected it. It Lee wins he has the Hodge locked up, if he loses, it gets thrown out as an off-weight loss, or at worst leads to him sharing the Hodge with Yianni as 1-loss 4xers. Lee should want this. But I don’t think RBY ducks Lee if he comes for him. 

— the reasons to make this happen are countless. Duals don’t matter, but this is effectively the dual meet championship. They are both seniors. The two most decorated wrestlers in a single NCAA match ever. Whatever the outcome, there would be an outpouring of respect for both. It should happen. 

Ybarra majoring Steen is funny.

Ybarra has one bonus win in his career …over a D2 guy (in a tournament where he only got decisions over 2 D3 guys).

Ybarra has only 1 win over a D1 starter, last year against Chauvin of Army in SV…and Chauvin finished the year 3-16.

I’d say Ybarra/Steen is a tossup at best, and zero chance Ybarra majors him.

[D3UC157]

45 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

RBY is wrestling a light schedule and if he is going to make a run at 2024 it will need to be at 57kg. Start practicing now.  Owings went down to find Gable. It's a shame RBY wasn't confident enough in himself to do the same. He's already beat Fix so another title at 133 isn't going to change his legacy. Makes you wonder if Cael is protecting his ego.

Quite speculative and judgmental.

Perhaps he would like to but there is currently no value in doing so in Folk vs. the benefit for Freestyle? Plus there are team aspects at play. Doesn’t want to cut weight for an NCAA season as opposed to a handful of freestyle weigh-ins.

But we don’t actually know.

[Gable moved up (130, 137, 142), Owings did not move, he was at 142 for 3 years.]

Could we say all champions lack confidence if they aren’t willing to go up or down a weight to challenge another champion?

There is a difference between 2x’ers and 3x’ers in terms of legacy, beating Fix a 3rd time is a big deal.

[wrestlingphish]

2 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

Quite speculative and judgmental.

 

That was the point.

[D3UC157]

2 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

 

That was the point.

Do you have personal knowledge he wasn’t confident enough in himself? 

It feels like you’re stating it(his lack of confidence)as fact. And based it off an incorrect anecdote.

 

[BAC]

55 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

This sentence right here gives away the game that OP's premise/motive/whatever is disingenuous and they are full of shit.

How so? Not my fault that Ayala’s mom started teeing off on Lee on Twitter, or that Lee and Brands were jawing at each other at the Soldier tournament after Lee roughed up Ayala. If you don’t like it, don’t go name-calling to me, tell Iowa to stop airing its dirty laundry.

My “motive” is pretty clear: I’d like to see Lee and RBY wrestle. What kind of sorry excuse for a wrestling fan are you if you disagree with that?