Copying Golf for National Title

[BruceyB]

I just posted this deep on another thread, but I thought it was worth it's own.

When it comes to giving out a national title in an individual sport, golf actually does it right.

"All 30 teams and six individuals will complete 54 holes of stroke play. Following 54 holes of competition, the top 15 teams along with the top nine individuals not on an advancing team will advance for one additional day of stroke play to determine the top eight teams for match-play competition and the 72-hole stroke-play individual champion. The top eight teams after 72 holes of play will be placed into a bracket thereafter."

In wrestling terms, this would be having the NCAA championships to crown the individual national champions at each weight. Then you would take the top 8 scoring teams, and have them face in a bracketed dual tournament for the team title.

How anyone could be against this format is absolutely insane to me. It would be awesome watching teams trying to qualify for the team tournament for the first time, or jockeying for seeding position. Imagine a weekend where on Friday you have four duals to watch, Saturday night you have the two semi-finals, and then on Sunday a two hour dual for the national title.

[PortaJohn]

I'm in the minority here but I don't think national duals will be as popular as the hardcore wrestling junkies like ourselves think they'll be. 

[MPhillips]

1 minute ago, PortaJohn said:

I'm in the minority here but I don't think national duals will be as popular as the hardcore wrestling junkies like ourselves think they'll be. 

They will to the hardcore wrestling junkies like ourselves.

[Dogbone]

17 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I'm in the minority here but I don't think national duals will be as popular as the hardcore wrestling junkies like ourselves think they'll be. 

I don't know that it will become "popular" but I think it has the chance to get more exposure from casual fans than the individual tournament. 

For example, It looks like more people watched the PSU/Iowa dual on BTN than the B1G championship last year https://ustvdb.com/networks/btn/shows/b1g-wrestling/ 

Having said that I don't want to change anything with the individual tournament, but I think there is merit that it could create more exposure.     You would basically get the diehards and few casual fans of the teams competing but not enough that it would be "popular" 

 

 

[rsotelo]

I have been a D1 and HS wrestling fan for a long time.  Thinking back, the most memorable and exciting moments for me have all come in dual competitions.  We have seen some great close duals and unbelievable matches and got us super excited and pumped.  I can't same the same for individual tournaments.  There are great matches, but nothing like having a team score and victory on the line.  That's just my opinion. 

[Caveira]

Carl killed it once unfortunately. …. And his recent interview he didn’t exactly jump all over the idea.  
 

problem with the dual championship relative to excitement is that maybe 3/4 schools will ever compete for the title.  It axes the fun for everyone else where some guy from a smaller school can win a national title.   
 

illinois has a dual team championship that straddles the individual tourney.  Regionals sectionals are prior ish and the dual championship is a week or two after.  Ikwf (kids in IL) did it when I was a kid too.  How banged up are people after d1 nationals?  I always bumped up a weight for team sectionals and team duals because quite frankly I was tired of cutting tbh.   I imagine they are more banged up than the avg high school guy too.  
 

don’t get me wrong.  If they had it I would watch 10/10 times but the fans care more about the individual tourney way more.   for the individual tourney it’s basically sold out…..  for dual state it’s back to empty from an attendance perspective.  

and Carl killed it  

good idea though.  I like it.  I think it works out better for golf because let’s say #9 could easily beat #1 on a good day.   Team wise I don’t see that ever happening.  

[VakAttack]

3 minutes ago, Caveira said:

 

problem with the dual championship relative to excitement is that maybe 3/4 schools will ever compete for the title.  It axes the fun for everyone else where some guy from a smaller school can win a national title.   
 

As opposed to now where the titles are spread far and wide?

[PortaJohn]

6 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Carl killed it once unfortunately

 

7 minutes ago, Caveira said:

and Carl killed it  

Stop with this nonsense.  Tom Brands was also very much involved on killing it as were other high profile coaches

[Caveira]

20 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

As opposed to now where the titles are spread far and wide?

I think a large % of casual fans don’t care about who wins the team title.   They care about who wins state or ncaa titles individually.  
 

dispute this.  At the IL state tourney for the last few rounds the stands are packed.  At the IL dual state tourney the stands are empty.  Humans speak with their attendance.   If that doesn’t speak to the general idea that the general fan cares way more about the individual tourney I really don’t know what does.  
 

also Carl was interview recently and he basically said meh don’t care.   
 

brands was interviewed recently and he said he has a ton of interest.  
 

Carl killed it 

Edited Tuesday at 11:44 PM by Caveira

[Pinnacle]

By getting down to 8 teams Golf is a defacto duals championship. The tournament simply determines qualification for the dual championship.

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, Dogbone said:

Having said that I don't want to change anything with the individual tournament, but I think there is merit that it could create more exposure.     You would basically get the diehards and few casual fans of the teams competing but not enough that it would be "popular" 

Did you read my original post? The individual tournament stays the same and serves as a qualifier to compete in a dual tournament for the national title.

[Mr. PeanutButter]

Would there be a break inbetween the 2 events. If so, how long? What happens if many high profile wrestlers are too injured after the individual tournament to participate in duals? 

I'm intrigued by the idea all things considered 

[BruceyB]

14 minutes ago, Caveira said:

dispute this.  At the IL state tourney for the last few rounds the stands are packed.  At the IL dual star tourney the stands are empty.  Humans speak with their attendance.   If that doesn’t speak to the general idea that the general fan cares way more about the individual tourney I really don’t know what does.

I think your not properly acknowledging the difference of fan engagement for high school athletics vs d1 college wrestling. duals generate more viewership than tournaments outside of the NCAAs for wrestling, and currently they're all but meaningless. If there was a natty title on the line, it would be electric.

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, BruceyB said:

I think your not properly acknowledging the difference of fan engagement for high school athletics vs d1 college wrestling. duals generate more viewership than tournaments outside of the NCAAs for wrestling, and currently they're all but meaningless. If there was a natty title on the line, it would be electric.

We already have a natty title on the line at the individual tournament.  Do we not?   

[BruceyB]

2 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Would there be a break inbetween the 2 events. If so, how long? What happens if many high profile wrestlers are too injured after the individual tournament to participate in duals? 

I'm intrigued by the idea all things considered 

I'd leave that to the coaches to decide. 1 or 2 week break after NCAAs. I have no idea what the numbers are on guys getting injured at NCAAs. I'd imagine the number wouldn't be all that high to keep them from being able to compete for the team title.

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

We already have a natty title on the line at the individual tournament.  Do we not?   

Did you read the proposal? There is no more natty title connected to the individual tournament in this scenario. Team results are just a qualifier for seeding.

[Caveira]

Just now, BruceyB said:

I'd leave that to the coaches to decide.

Ironically they already have.  As someone else pointed out above.  Many in addition to Carl didn’t/don’t want this any more.  

[Caveira]

Just now, BruceyB said:

Did you read the proposal? There is no more natty title connected to the individual tournament in this scenario. Team results are just a qualifier for seeding.

Bogus  that’s the one part of the idea I didn’t like.  I liked all of the rest.  

[BruceyB]

Just now, Caveira said:

Ironically they already have.  As someone else pointed out above.  Many in addition to Carl didn’t/don’t want this any more.  

You just don't like fun do you? It's just a topic for conversation as I think the way golf handles their individual based team sport better than wrestling currently does, and how awesome a true dual team national title would be to watch.

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

You just don't like fun do you? It's just a topic for conversation as I think the way golf handles their individual based team sport better than wrestling currently does, and how awesome a true dual team national title would be to watch.

Sorry.   Tis another topic that comes up once a year.   Every year.    That’s not your fault.  If that makes sense.  Your proposal was good ….. and interesting.  
 

we had a national duals championship for years.  Every team of any relevance competed in it.  It isn’t or wasn’t as popular as the individual tourney by a long shot.  I watched it on tv every time I could.  I would watch it every time if they had it again.  It wasn’t the $ generator it needed to be.  It didn’t attract enough fans.  And a lot of coaches didn’t want to do it any more.   

Edited yesterday at 12:02 AM by Caveira

[BruceyB]

26 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I think a large % of casual fans don’t care about who wins the team title.   They care about who wins state or ncaa titles individually.

With this logic, the ratings for the individual tournament really won't change. You retain the current highest viewed event in wrestling without losing viewership. The team race isn't even a thing this year and rating won't suffer because of it.

3 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Bogus  that’s the one part of the idea I didn’t like.

As you said above, most casual fans don't care about the team results in the individual tournament, so why crown a team title where the team score is a secondary concern?

With the team title being granted through a new 8 team dual tournament, the championships, I believe, would break all records regarding viewership of a single wrestling broadcast.

[Pinnacle]

31 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Ironically they already have.  As someone else pointed out above.  Many in addition to Carl didn’t/don’t want this any more.  

The NCAA said no to two championships, so it is the tournament or a change away from the tournament towards a dual champion. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

I seem to remember our own JB mentioning for years that a team-based championship would probably be better for our sport. While the individual tournament cannot be denied, I'm inclined to agree. A team format requires more strategic coaching, allows backups a chance to compete in a championship, and encourages wrestlers to get after bonus points. You could also see guys bump up and down a weight in the same tournament, which might be interesting. Probably more fun for casuals to watch and pick up on the sport.

My only modification would be to randomly draw the weight class to start the dual (rather than starting at 125) or better, randomly draw weight classes after each match so it's completely shuffled and requires more on-the-fly coaching adjustments to the lineup. Also, free bourbon and ice cream during intermission.

[CHROMEBIRD]

3 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

By getting down to 8 teams Golf is a defacto duals championship. The tournament simply determines qualification for the dual championship.

The correct answer is to actually copy tennis. After a kid loses, they get slotted into a doubles tournament for a tag team championship.

[Wrestleknownothing]

23 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I seem to remember our own JB mentioning for years that a team-based championship would probably be better for our sport. While the individual tournament cannot be denied, I'm inclined to agree. A team format requires more strategic coaching, allows backups a chance to compete in a championship, and encourages wrestlers to get after bonus points. You could also see guys bump up and down a weight in the same tournament, which might be interesting. Probably more fun for casuals to watch and pick up on the sport.

My only modification would be to randomly draw the weight class to start the dual (rather than starting at 125) or better, randomly draw weight classes after each match so it's completely shuffled and requires more on-the-fly coaching adjustments to the lineup. Also, free bourbon and ice cream during intermission.

Suddenly I am interested