buckshot Posted January 7, 2023 Posted January 7, 2023 Instead of a bow and arrow guys should just very nicely ask guys to go to their back. If they refuse they should ask again but even nicer. 1
ionel Posted January 7, 2023 Posted January 7, 2023 7 minutes ago, buckshot said: Instead of a bow and arrow guys should just very nicely ask guys to go to their back. If they refuse they should ask again but even nicer. 2 2 .
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 14 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Your logic is circular. A full nelson is a turning move and is illegal. A bow and arrow is a turning move and is not illegal. Therefore, they are not comparable turning moves. Why is a full nelson illegal? Was it legal at one time, but now is legal? No, my logic is pretty straight forward. Your argument that "the Forum" is contradictory because apparently there have been complaints about people working to ride and not turn(I don't know how to argue for "the Forum" to be clear, only my own opinion) then it's somehow at odds with the belief that a particular turn should be illegal is circular. I was using hyperbole to make a point. If we've determined SOME moves on top are dangerous or likely to cause injury, that supercedes the "Forums" desire to see more turns. Amos had his foot behind his head and his knee twisted. That's a good way to Spencer Lee a kid and serves no real purpose other than I guess serve as a strawman for those on the forum who have complained about not enough Wrestlers working for turns. Go to 35:50 and tell me that should be legal?
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 12 hours ago, LJB said: the bow and arrow is totally legal in free all ages... up until a couple of years ago it was illegal for only the little kids... schoolboy and down... never seen anything other than a kid acting hurt because he just lost... that is not to say it is not uncomfortable... last year i stopped a bow and arrow in a cadet match because it was applied to a kid who had no idea how to wrestle and that poor kid turned against it and i did not want to see his knee get ripped apart... a former world team member coach and his former high level wrestling wife both jumped all over me saying how it is not illegal... why did you stop it... blah blah blah... i explained to them both i knew it was perfectly legal and their kid did nothing wrong... but the other poor kid had no clue how to wrestle and i did not want him getting hurt just because he didn't know anything... i felt the same way reading this thread... So...as a ref, you arbitrarily stopped it because you were afraid the other kid...who in your estimation didn't understand the sport well enough...was going to get hurt? But your first sentence was that you'd never seen anything OTHER than a kid ACTING hurt because he just lost. Seems...contradictory, no? 1
Wrestleknownothing Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 8 minutes ago, scourge165 said: No, my logic is pretty straight forward. Your argument that "the Forum" is contradictory because apparently there have been complaints about people working to ride and not turn(I don't know how to argue for "the Forum" to be clear, only my own opinion) then it's somehow at odds with the belief that a particular turn should be illegal is circular. I was using hyperbole to make a point. If we've determined SOME moves on top are dangerous or likely to cause injury, that supercedes the "Forums" desire to see more turns. Amos had his foot behind his head and his knee twisted. That's a good way to Spencer Lee a kid and serves no real purpose other than I guess serve as a strawman for those on the forum who have complained about not enough Wrestlers working for turns. Go to 35:50 and tell me that should be legal? His knee wasn't twisted, which is why it is not illegal. His knee was bent in the direction it is designed to bend. Yes, it is extremely uncomfortable, but not any more dangerous than many wrestling moves. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 6 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: His knee wasn't twisted, which is why it is not illegal. His knee was bent in the direction it is designed to bend. Yes, it is extremely uncomfortable, but not any more dangerous than many wrestling moves. I guess it's 36:15....and now, that's NOT the direction the knee was "designed" to be bent. Which moves would you deem as being as dangerous? Lets just make the same rules as the High Schools. When start pulling the foot toward the head, then it's illegal. 1
LJB Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 10 hours ago, scourge165 said: So...as a ref, you arbitrarily stopped it because you were afraid the other kid...who in your estimation didn't understand the sport well enough...was going to get hurt? But your first sentence was that you'd never seen anything OTHER than a kid ACTING hurt because he just lost. Seems...contradictory, no? contradictory if you have absolutely no nuance at all, which, is sadly the case more often than not... i stopped it because the "wrestler" had no idea how to react to the totally legal move and i saved him from his ignorance... kinda like this thread... the move itself was not the problem... it was the action as a result and i stopped it... just like every situation like that... there is nothing wrong with the move and it is just ignorance that makes some want it made illegal... 1
Perry Posted January 8, 2023 Author Posted January 8, 2023 13 hours ago, scourge165 said: I guess it's 36:15....and now, that's NOT the direction the knee was "designed" to be bent. Which moves would you deem as being as dangerous? Lets just make the same rules as the High Schools. When start pulling the foot toward the head, then it's illegal. I would be all on board for this suggestion 1
Mike Parrish Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 The biggest problem I see with moves like this is that local refs won't know when it becomes illegal and won't make the call.
LJB Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 The move never becomes illegal… it can lead to injury if any number of factors occur… just like all moves…
Mike Parrish Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 26 minutes ago, LJB said: The move never becomes illegal… it can lead to injury if any number of factors occur… just like all moves… To be clearer, I was talking about high school wrestling. If the Bow and Arrow becomes a Back Bow, it's illegal under NFHS rules.
Wrestleknownothing Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 14 hours ago, scourge165 said: I guess it's 36:15....and now, that's NOT the direction the knee was "designed" to be bent. Which moves would you deem as being as dangerous? Lets just make the same rules as the High Schools. When start pulling the foot toward the head, then it's illegal. I don't understand why you think the knee was not designed to bend toward the back. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 6 hours ago, LJB said: contradictory if you have absolutely no nuance at all, which, is sadly the case more often than not... i stopped it because the "wrestler" had no idea how to react to the totally legal move and i saved him from his ignorance... kinda like this thread... the move itself was not the problem... it was the action as a result and i stopped it... just like every situation like that... there is nothing wrong with the move and it is just ignorance that makes some want it made illegal... LOL...ok. You've NEVER seen anyone hurt from this move(other than faking it I guess). But you STILL felt the need to stop it at the cadet level because you decided a kid was too ignorant and had no idea how to react...to the totally legal move? So what? Why is that a problem if injury is SUUUCH a far fetched idea? Do you also stop kids who don't know how to defend double legs? But sure, everyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant.
LJB Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 30 minutes ago, scourge165 said: LOL...ok. You've NEVER seen anyone hurt from this move(other than faking it I guess). But you STILL felt the need to stop it at the cadet level because you decided a kid was too ignorant and had no idea how to react...to the totally legal move? So what? Why is that a problem if injury is SUUUCH a far fetched idea? Do you also stop kids who don't know how to defend double legs? But sure, everyone who doesn't agree with you is ignorant. You have made up a scenario in your head that fits your narrative… A gave a brief synopsis of an actual real live event that happened and was topical… no real details… you then made up some stuff and now you have decided to make a stand because you clearly have you big boy pants on today… I have never seen anyone injured with this move… that is no small amount of matches… I have seen plenty lay in the mat while their corner was acting the fool after a loss… then magically they walk off after the drama… I gave reffed for about 5 years… the one time I have ever stopped the bow and arrow was when a kid applied it to an obviously beginner… had the offensive wrestler been what I would consider a high level wrestler then the joke would have been applied properly and they would have rolled around a couple of times and then next match… Instead, the offensive wrestler’s grip obviously slipped or was not good enough to begin with and the kid bent twisted away from the hold and I did not like the direction his lower half was heading so I stopped it… man’s while feeling the need to justify myself to you makes me feel a little less, there was value in it… made me think of the several times I gave physically stopped a kid from taking the bow and arrow the wrong direction… that has happened enough times I might have to take my shoes off to count… again… if properly applied no big deal and only “appears” malicious to those uninitiated… that does not mean that a position change through the normal course of wrestling could create an issue… just like every other move or physical action the human body is capable of… which is what the ref is there for… That is not to say shit does not still happen at times… perhaps a different sport would suit some of you better…
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, LJB said: You have made up a scenario in your head that fits your narrative… A gave a brief synopsis of an actual real live event that happened and was topical… no real details… you then made up some stuff and now you have decided to make a stand because you clearly have you big boy pants on today… I have never seen anyone injured with this move… that is no small amount of matches… I have seen plenty lay in the mat while their corner was acting the fool after a loss… then magically they walk off after the drama… I gave reffed for about 5 years… the one time I have ever stopped the bow and arrow was when a kid applied it to an obviously beginner… had the offensive wrestler been what I would consider a high level wrestler then the joke would have been applied properly and they would have rolled around a couple of times and then next match… Instead, the offensive wrestler’s grip obviously slipped or was not good enough to begin with and the kid bent twisted away from the hold and I did not like the direction his lower half was heading so I stopped it… man’s while feeling the need to justify myself to you makes me feel a little less, there was value in it… made me think of the several times I gave physically stopped a kid from taking the bow and arrow the wrong direction… that has happened enough times I might have to take my shoes off to count… again… if properly applied no big deal and only “appears” malicious to those uninitiated… that does not mean that a position change through the normal course of wrestling could create an issue… just like every other move or physical action the human body is capable of… which is what the ref is there for… That is not to say shit does not still happen at times… perhaps a different sport would suit some of you better… Jesus...this was NOT easy to get through. Yeah, I'm done pal. I'm in my 30s, I wrestled for 20 years. I don't need to pick another sport. I think I can still have an opinion on a move. What I can't do it decipher some of this nonsense and respond to it. No scenario was made up. You inferred it was SO outrageous that a kid could get hurt that in your wealth of experience..."I gave reffed for about 5 years…" you've NEVER seen anyone hurt from it. You still had to stop it. Oh and then apparently there were those other times; 6 minutes ago, LJB said: made me think of the several times I gave physically stopped a kid from taking the bow and arrow the wrong direction… that has happened enough times I might have to take my shoes off to count… Huh...so all these times you've had to stop the bow and arrow, but it's NO different than any other move and there's no danger. And if a kid looks hurt...well, then he MUST be faking it! 7 minutes ago, LJB said: you then made up some stuff and now you have decided to make a stand because you clearly have you big boy pants on today… I made up a scenario? Huh...and what scenario did I "make up?" What did I post that didn't come DIRECTLY from you? Please by all means, post where I lied? 1
LJB Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 Ok… you win the internet today, sparky… I just hope you don’t pull a muscle from clutching your pearls too much the next time you see a wrestling move applied… I mean you are in your 30’s and all…
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 4 hours ago, Mike Parrish said: The biggest problem I see with moves like this is that local refs won't know when it becomes illegal and won't make the call. Yeah, that's fair. But you're always going to have bad refs. If we start using that as a rationale to not change a rule... Plus, this is already the rule at the HS level. So if they can figure it out, I'm sure the College Refs can.
Mike Parrish Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Yeah, that's fair. But you're always going to have bad refs. If we start using that as a rationale to not change a rule... Plus, this is already the rule at the HS level. So if they can figure it out, I'm sure the College Refs can. I'm firmly in the 'safety of the athlete comes first' camp. At least at middle/high school levels, I'd much rather see moves that have a higher chance to go sideways and hurt an athlete go away. Preempting all of the "maybe a different sport..." wannabee tough guy responses, my daughter never runs punishment moves like this and she's done OK. 3
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 5 minutes ago, LJB said: Ok… you win the internet today, sparky… I just hope you don’t pull a muscle from clutching your pearls too much the next time you see a wrestling move applied… I mean you are in your 30’s and all… LOL...I've never seen someone this personally offended at the idea that you slightly change the rules in Wrestling. Do you lose a little power if that happens bud? Do you no longer get to pick which kid is too "ignorant" about Wrestling to stop it? What exactly personally offended YOU in the mere suggestion that the Bow and Arrow should MAY be banned as it's effectively a submission move? And I wasn't bragging about being in my 30s. Just replying to the inference that this was somehow self serving because...well, I just wasn't tough enough to deal with it!
LJB Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 6 minutes ago, scourge165 said: LOL...I've never seen someone this personally offended at the idea that you slightly change the rules in Wrestling. Do you lose a little power if that happens bud? Do you no longer get to pick which kid is too "ignorant" about Wrestling to stop it? What exactly personally offended YOU in the mere suggestion that the Bow and Arrow should MAY be banned as it's effectively a submission move? And I wasn't bragging about being in my 30s. Just replying to the inference that this was somehow self serving because...well, I just wasn't tough enough to deal with it! You are killing this game, sparky…
scourge165 Posted January 8, 2023 Posted January 8, 2023 11 minutes ago, LJB said: You are killing this game, sparky…
Mike Parrish Posted January 9, 2023 Posted January 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, LJB said: Punishment move? oh my… the horror… the… horror… You know what I mean. Like having both boots in and running a power half against someone pinned to the mat with no way to turn. These are moves designed to inflict punishment. 1
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