With all of this talk about to gap from 197-285

[bnwtwg]

3 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

JR Year - Lost to perhaps the smallest 197lb champ EVER 8 hours AFTER weigh ins - Max Dean. 

Dean was the better wrestler, multiple times that season. He was a dawg. Three days of weigh-ins most certainly took a toll on Warner, but Dean beat him (and beat the $hit out of him previously riding him like a rented mule)

5 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

SR Year beat Silas Allred on RT. Silas is now a 184lber. Weight class was won by Aaron Brooks who started out as a 184lber.

Allred went on a heater that year. Hopefully he finds success at the weight that suits him best, up or down. Again, I view using Warner as an unfair example to a larger problem at hand and not trying to single him out that if he wasn't cutting and instead at a comfy weight he would have had success rather than defeat.

Brooks is looking to move to 97kg btw. But you knew that.

5 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

SO Year lost to Myles Amine started as a 174 and only wrestled 197 to keep size on for the OLY.

Death, taxes, Amine collecting world medals. What a scrub.

6 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

FR Year lost to Shakur Rasheed who started out as a 165lber.

You got me there. No one should ever move up. Oh... wait... did Rasheed move up because there was a weight class that best suited him after fully maturing? What a great convenience, too bad others don't have the same because they have the misfortune of genetics.

[Gene Mills Fan]

5 hours ago, 666 said:

My Fr year in HS there wasn't even a 190 pound weight class, it went straight from 178 to unlimited HWT.  I saw guys who weighed around 180 pounds wrestling guys who weighed well over 300 pounds. There was a kid from Coweta who weighed 440 pounds. 

Right so what we are all saying is a lot of good athletes aren't going to wrestle;(210-235 because they don't want to get stuck under a 285 pounder

[flyingcement]

11 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I’m still confused how more wrestling upperweight classes would have any measurable impact on athletes getting lured away to football by NIL.  Besides, it seems like if they’re good enough to both wrestle and play D1 football, they generally play a position where they’d be best suited at ~250+ lbs (Hutmacher, Kueter, Mullen all very recent examples)

My argument has been that I do NOT believe it’s rare for undersized heavyweights to have success.  I literally couldn’t find a single example of someone bumping from 197 to heavyweight and doing noticeably worse.   The example used in the other thread was a guy who was undefeated going into NCAA’s… IIRC, @bnwtwg’s primary complaint was he didn’t like cutting to 197.  @bnwtwg, did you wrestle heavyweight at all?

I know I basically just asked you in the post above, and I’ve asked @bnwtwg multiple times with no response that I’ve seen.  Do you think shifting 184 and 197 upwards would solve this supposed issue?  I’m on board with that.  But not keeping 197 and adding another weight between that and heavyweight.

I don't think it will have too much of an impact on NIL and drawing away from football - for those that wanted to play football to begin with.  I know too many people that start to grow into that 210-225 zone as a freshman in college - which makes it even more bizarre in a way that we have 215 in high school - where the weight is much less common - compared to in college where it is far more common.  

I think shifting 184 and 197 upward is one way of going about it, and that would be an improvement on what we have now, but I would not be opposed to rethinking all of the weight classes if it makes sense to do so.  125 seems pretty small, but I think for now there is still some relevance.  I could also see an argument for bumping it up to 130 and setting weights upward from there.  

I think 285 is fine to cast a wider net in college and they can cut ten lbs for the olympics.  

I am curious about the basis of your argument - regarding the rarity of light heavyweights having success.  I think most (90%) if heavyweights this year were between 235 and 270 from what I've seen.  So the assertion isn't that there are guys being outweighed by 90 lbs each time, but that the very large gap leaves for a disproportionate amount of weight mismatches in the HWT class.  Not just in terms of lbs, but in terms of percentage of body weight giving up.  

 

Edited Saturday at 12:28 AM by flyingcement

[flyingcement]

15 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

oh, ffs, stop with the college Sophomore sociology babble. anecdotes don't make true a problem at scale. 

define 'elite'. where's the study that say elite wrestling prospects choose football over wrestling because weight class is an issue at anything close to a significant rate. can you name a single one? name an 'elite' high school wrestler that went DI football for the primary reason of weight class.

 

real for whom? a handful of prospects over the last decade

i can do the same thing in inverse. 

Recent World Teamers that Wrestled 106

57kg - Spencer Lee, Gilman

61kg - Daton Fix, Vito

65kg - Yianni, Stieber, JO

70kg - Zain

74 - Dake

79 - Dake

86 - David Taylor

92 - Zahid Valencia

97 - ?

125 - Zillmer

who cares

there is no 'problem'. not at scale, anyway. this is much ado about nothing. i don't here anyone crying about perennial World Teamer James Green being an obvious tweener at 65-74 in olympic years. how many weight class shifts are you going to entertain for the sake of a few outliers? should we re-wrestle NCAA's with a 170lb class b/c Dean Hamiti was struggling with 165? 

here's the # of DI Wrestlers by weight participated at this year...

1. I've never taken any sociology class, not even as a sophomore.  

2. Anecdotes aren't the crux of an argument that I was making.  I did defend @bnwtwg's sentiments, but my acknowledgement of his concerns doesn't mean that I'm using anecdotes to prop up my beliefs.  
 

3. The number of participants in a given weight class is an indicator of weight distribution of the population.  But what other point is being made there?  That you think we should tolerate a setup where we create lots of mini weight classes to overly accomodate for the distribution?  To me that's the same philosophy of trying to find a way to give everyone a trophy.  So those totals by weight class are completely beside the point.

 

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

Dean was the better wrestler, multiple times that season. He was a dawg. Three days of weigh-ins most certainly took a toll on Warner, but Dean beat him (and beat the $hit out of him previously riding him like a rented mule)

Allred went on a heater that year. Hopefully he finds success at the weight that suits him best, up or down. Again, I view using Warner as an unfair example to a larger problem at hand and not trying to single him out that if he wasn't cutting and instead at a comfy weight he would have had success rather than defeat.

Brooks is looking to move to 97kg btw. But you knew that.

Death, taxes, Amine collecting world medals. What a scrub.

You got me there. No one should ever move up. Oh... wait... did Rasheed move up because there was a weight class that best suited him after fully maturing? What a great convenience, too bad others don't have the same because they have the misfortune of genetics.

i don't think you addressed your assignment,

which was to show why/how Warner would have won NCAA's if the weight were higher.

if you can, your next assignment is to make the case for several more people.

[bnwtwg]

13 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

i don't think you addressed your assignment,

which was to show why/how Warner would have won NCAA's if the weight were higher.

if you can, your next assignment is to make the case for several more people.

I will never be able to prove or disprove what is an opinion of a hypothetical. My opinion is that 6 years of cutting took its toll on a blue chipper, and my opinion is that if he and others had an opportunity to move to a more comfortable weight class requiring a sacrifice not known to other weights other than "you don't start" then we would have many different narratives. But it doesn't matter and I'm wrong, I concede. Who wants elite athletes that are stuck in a tweener weight choosing to participate in another sport anyways.

Edited Saturday at 01:13 AM by bnwtwg
sp

[1032004]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Track has them for B1Gs and Tournaflex for National Duals.

At B1Gs last year there was only one at the 285 limit in Polar Bear.

Year before only one as well, forget who.

Where does one find this?

[chriskbrown50]

3 hours ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Right so what we are all saying is a lot of good athletes aren't going to wrestle;(210-235 because they don't want to get stuck under a 285 pounder

Senior year of high school I walked off the football field at 230+ in November. My wrestling coach wanted to me stay in the 180 to 190 range. I wanted to play football and made first-team all-prep in football.  Lost 20 pounds in the wrestling room but no way was I cutting another 25 plus to get to 185. I got my butt handed to me by some guys who I had actually blocked well on the football field. It was a long season for me - would have loved a 215 class. 

[1032004]

2 hours ago, flyingcement said:

 

I am curious about the basis of your argument - regarding the rarity of light heavyweights having success.  I think most (90%) if heavyweights this year were between 235 and 270 from what I've seen.  So the assertion isn't that there are guys being outweighed by 90 lbs each time, but that the very large gap leaves for a disproportionate amount of weight mismatches in the HWT class.  Not just in terms of lbs, but in terms of percentage of body weight giving up.  

 

I’m sure some of these guys have since grown to larger than 235, but below are all guys that wrestled 197 or lower at some point in college (and I could have missed some) just this season! (Flo rankings)

Bastida (#4)

Trumble (#5)

Ghadiali (#6)

2 years ago Lance Runyon (#17) was 5-7 wrestling 174 (!).  This season he is 7-2 wrestling heavyweight

Cory Day (#19) wrestled 184 in 2020, heavyweight in 2021, 184 in 2021, back to heavyweight since

Lucas Stoddard (#23) was listed as a 197 during his grayshirt year although did not wrestle any matches 

Brett Mower (#25).  Last year at 197 he got pinned by 4 different backups, looks like he had one win over a D1 starter, a guy from Cal Baptist that was 4-17.  Funny story!  The guy from Cal Baptist started at heavyweight for Buffalo the previous season, and was 14-12.  This year Mower is 9-5 with wins over 3 different Big 12 starters.

Trevor Tinker (#31)

Gavin Hoffman wrestled 184 last season, apparently will be wrestling heavyweight this season

William Jarrell of American (NR by Flo, #23 on WS) was 7-24 as a freshman 197.  This season he is 10-4.

Gabe Christenson (NR by Flo, #30 on WS)

Daulton Mayer (NR by Flo, #32 on WS)

In addition, I believe Feldman, Kueter and Pitzer (among others I’m sure) were 215-220 in HS.

[nhs67]

4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Where does one find this?

Track and Tournaflex

https://www.tournaflex.com/splat.asp?target=roster1.htm

[1032004]

5 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Track and Tournaflex

https://www.tournaflex.com/splat.asp?target=roster1.htm

TY sir, so at the B1G last year 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th all weighed in under 240.   I guess @bnwtwg was right with his Jacob Warner comment…if there was a 220 class maybe some guys would place one spot higher…

Case closed that we don’t need both 197 & 220?

[Gene Mills Fan]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

TY sir, so at the B1G last year 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th all weighed in under 240.   I guess @bnwtwg was right with his Jacob Warner comment…if there was a 220 class maybe some guys would place one spot higher…

Case closed that we don’t need both 197 & 220?

 

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

TY sir, so at the B1G last year 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th all weighed in under 240.   I guess @bnwtwg was right with his Jacob Warner comment…if there was a 220 class maybe some guys would place one spot higher…

Case closed that we don’t need both 197 & 220?

I dont think its about wrestlers that would follow their passion no matter what they weighed. Its more about bringing or keeping athletes in this demo graphic ( 210-240 pounds) a  into the sport or to stay wrestling without moving on because theres a Hendrickson or kerkvliet that they have to eventually meet.  

[1032004]

44 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

 

I dont think its about wrestlers that would follow their passion no matter what they weighed. Its more about bringing or keeping athletes in this demo graphic ( 210-240 pounds) a  into the sport or to stay wrestling without moving on because theres a Hendrickson or kerkvliet that they have to eventually meet.  

Ok so to @Husker_Du’s question, who “moved on” because there was a Hendrickson or Kerkvliet that they’d have to eventually meet?  Not to mention Kerk himself only weighed 255 last season and IIRC was in the 230’s in his earlier years.

[Gene Mills Fan]

15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Ok so to @Husker_Du’s question, who “moved on” because there was a Hendrickson or Kerkvliet that they’d have to eventually meet?  Not to mention Kerk himself only weighed 255 last season and IIRC was in the 230’s in his earlier years.

I thought we were talking about high school light heavyweight athletes leaving to play other sports and nil's. Did you read the last paragraph of the original post? guys with no fat to cut (210-235)  leaving wrestling to be a QB or DB.   There is no weight class for them. How many more college wrestlers might there be; if the gap wasn't so big?  So right now basically if your'e in that demographic the reality is; you're Deion Sanders wrestling Lawrence Taylor or Gronk.

[Husker_Du]

Lucas Davison - another one that spent multiple years at 197 before becoming a top 5 hwt.

there is WAY more data that says you can effectively move from 197 to HWT and be great than there is to suggest small heavyweights struggle. 

again, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. 

[Gene Mills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Lucas Davison - another one that spent multiple years at 197 before becoming a top 5 hwt.

there is WAY more data that says you can effectively move from 197 to HWT and be great than there is to suggest small heavyweights struggle. 

again, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. 

Do you think Snyder would be happy if there was no 97(213 pounds)?  Or he would just be happy to bulk up?

[Gene Mills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Do you think Snyder would be happy if there was no 97(213 pounds)?  Or he would just be happy to bulk up?

And for all the Keuters there's ten that do the opposite. A percentage because of this gap. A lot of athletes there.

[1032004]

1 hour ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

I thought we were talking about high school light heavyweight athletes leaving to play other sports and nil's. Did you read the last paragraph of the original post? guys with no fat to cut (210-235)  leaving wrestling to be a QB or DB.   There is no weight class for them. How many more college wrestlers might there be; if the gap wasn't so big?  So right now basically if your'e in that demographic the reality is; you're Deion Sanders wrestling Lawrence Taylor or Gronk.

Can you name a HS wrestler that chose not to wrestle in college because of the lack of a weight between 197 and heavyweight?  I’m sure it’s happened but likely the exception to the rule.

@Wrestleknownothing shared this chart about a year ago when we were having this discussion.  184 and 197 appear to have the lowest number of participants in D1, so splitting them up into a third weight would just water them all down.

On 2/5/2024 at 5:37 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Per Wrestlestat the current number of wrestlers they have ranked in each weight.

125: 254
133: 268
141: 299
149: 322
157: 319
165: 302
174: 290
184: 240
197: 238
285: 262

So 285 is a bit of a catch all, but not too extreme. If it followed the trend it would be around 224 instead of 262.

 

49 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Do you think Snyder would be happy if there was no 97(213 pounds)?  Or he would just be happy to bulk up?

I don’t have an issue with 97kg internationally (and as I’ve been saying I think shifting both 184 and 197 makes sense to better align with that).  If we changed the international weights though 92kg is probably the one that should go 

Edited Saturday at 04:22 PM by 1032004

[Gene Mills Fan]

35 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Can you name a HS wrestler that chose not to wrestle in college because of the lack of a weight between 197 and heavyweight?  I’m sure it’s happened but likely the exception to the rule.

@Wrestleknownothing shared this chart about a year ago when we were having this discussion.  184 and 197 appear to have the lowest number of participants in D1, so splitting them up into a third weight would just water them all down.

 

I don’t have an issue with 97kg internationally (and as I’ve been saying I think shifting both 184 and 197 makes sense to better align with that).  If we changed the international weights though 92kg is probably the one that should go 

the chart is based on the only choices that existed. So why are only 262 sign up for 285? because if your 220 you have half a chance. Is it fact that Keuter's choice was publicized because its so extraordinary? Men are bigger now. The more the merrier!

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

How many more college wrestlers might there be;

Honestly.   Zero.  
 

schools wouldn’t be adding wrestling programs if they had a tweener weight.   There wouldn’t be more roster spots.    Maybe heavier guy now displaces natural 197lb wrestler but that would just be a roster spot swap.  
 

D1 wrestling isn’t growing is it?

[1032004]

33 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

the chart is based on the only choices that existed. So why are only 262 sign up for 285? because if your 220 you have half a chance. Is it fact that Keuter's choice was publicized because it’s so extraordinary? Men are bigger now. The more the merrier!

Kueter’s choice was extraordinary because usually someone that has any chance at the NFL will choose football because of the potential money, not because of the lack of a 220 weight class.

Even if you added 50 new guys which I doubt, you’d probably be taking 50-75 guys from each of 197 and heavyweight, leaving 197/220/285 at around 200 guys  each which would be about 20% lower than any other weight.

[Gene Mills Fan]

19 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Kueter’s choice was extraordinary because usually someone that has any chance at the NFL will choose football because of the potential money, not because of the lack of a 220 weight class.

Even if you added 50 new guys which I doubt, you’d probably be taking 50-75 guys from each of 197 and heavyweight, leaving 197/220/285 at around 200 guys  each which would be about 20% lower than any other weight.

I didn't see any byes in the 218 pound weight class at the Doc Buchanon. But they can all bulk up. 

[Gene Mills Fan]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

Honestly.   Zero.  
 

schools wouldn’t be adding wrestling programs if they had a tweener weight.   There wouldn’t be more roster spots.    Maybe heavier guy now displaces natural 197lb wrestler but that would just be a roster spot swap.  
 

D1 wrestling isn’t growing is it?

Do you work for the WNBA? 

[Caveira]

32 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Do you work for the WNBA? 

I do not.   Why do you ask?   
 

seriously though.  How does it not come out in a mathematical wash though?  A slightly heavier dude is just taking a slightly lighter dudes spot.    Would this lead to more d1 programs?   Doubtful.   Worse for ADs…. Let’s say add an 11th weight…. Now costs go up and that can’t be good.

 

 

[Gene Mills Fan]

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

I do not.   Why do you ask?   
 

seriously though.  How does it not come out in a mathematical wash though?  A slightly heavier dude is just taking a slightly lighter dudes spot.    Would this lead to more d1 programs?   Doubtful.   Worse for ADs…. Let’s say add an 11th weight…. Now costs go up and that can’t be good.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

I do not.   Why do you ask?   
 

seriously though.  How does it not come out in a mathematical wash though?  A slightly heavier dude is just taking a slightly lighter dudes spot.    Would this lead to more d1 programs?   Doubtful.   Worse for ADs…. Let’s say add an 11th weight…. Now costs go up and that can’t be good.

 

 

Do you really think it is fair a really good 220-230 gives up 50 pounds to a good 280 pounder? Just answer that one simple question.  Or they should all be happy with bulking up and taking 4 or 5th for 4 years? Who cares about AD's. What about the student athlete. Also because 2 220 pounders is a better product than  a 220 285 match. Your telling me there's not enough wrestlers who fit this body type?? And if the weights are split maybe there's half 220 wrestlers and half 230-285 wrestlers that's more guys wrestling equal opponents isn't that why we have weight classes. Programs are getting 3 deep at 197 look at all the new guys, If they put on a growth spurt then all they have is freestyle. Which brings us to another reason building for the 96kg spot.  If your looking to freestyle 96kg you sit out college or give up 50 pounds.