With all of this talk about to gap from 197-285

[Gus]

4 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Redshirt frosh year I was cutting from 234 down to 197 because it was the only way to try to find the starting lineup. I couldn't hold it any longer after two years so we went on a bulking plan and at my largest I was 248.

So yes, as I have said on this board and the old place many times prior, I wrestled both weights. To reiterate, I was cutting 37 pounds. In what universe is cutting 37 pounds healthy for an athlete?

 

You chose to cut 37 pounds because you wanted to be the starter. Had you been able to beat the heavyweight you would have chosen to not cut 37 pounds (as evidenced by you moving up). When I was in high school, I weighed 185 as a sophomore. I chose to cut down to 152 pounds because I was unable to beat the 189, 171 and 160 pounders on my team. I chose to cut 33 pounds because I wanted to be a starter. No one made me do it. I chose to do it. 

[bnwtwg]

5 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

oh, ffs, stop with the college Sophomore sociology babble. anecdotes don't make true a problem at scale. 

define 'elite'. where's the study that say elite wrestling prospects choose football over wrestling because weight class is an issue at anything close to a significant rate. can you name a single one? name an 'elite' high school wrestler that went DI football for the primary reason of weight class.

 

real for whom? a handful of prospects over the last decade

i can do the same thing in inverse. 

Recent World Teamers that Wrestled 106

57kg - Spencer Lee, Gilman

61kg - Daton Fix, Vito

65kg - Yianni, Stieber, JO

70kg - Zain

74 - Dake

79 - Dake

86 - David Taylor

92 - Zahid Valencia

97 - ?

125 - Zillmer

who cares

there is no 'problem'. not at scale, anyway. this is much ado about nothing. i don't here anyone crying about perennial World Teamer James Green being an obvious tweener at 65-74 in olympic years. how many weight class shifts are you going to entertain for the sake of a few outliers? should we re-wrestle NCAA's with a 170lb class b/c Dean Hamiti was struggling with 165? 

here's the # of DI Wrestlers by weight participated at this year...

 

Ok now let's talk about the kids pulled out of the hallway to wrestle 106 and not just the top level wrestlers if you want to play that game. Of course, you don't want to because you tend to not have civilized discourse and instead want to dunk on everyone at every chance you get. But to open and close that discussion from my side, it is the same as heavyweight at the kids level - studs and duds, not much in between. By the way, what was your weight class your senior year of high school? Does that have any correlation to your feelings?

And if you paid attention to any post of mine ever, you would know that I'm on your side about the tweeners like Green. It's a damn shame that only six arbitrary olympics weights exist. But then you throw out Hamiti, wrestling college, in the same paragraph. C'mon.

[1032004]

38 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Redshirt frosh year I was cutting from 234 down to 197 because it was the only way to try to find the starting lineup. I couldn't hold it any longer after two years so we went on a bulking plan and at my largest I was 248.

So yes, as I have said on this board and the old place many times prior, I wrestled both weights. To reiterate, I was cutting 37 pounds. In what universe is cutting 37 pounds healthy for an athlete?

 

And what were your results at heavyweight compared to 197?

[1032004]

42 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Ok now let's talk about the kids pulled out of the hallway to wrestle 106 and not just the top level wrestlers if you want to play that game. Of course, you don't want to because you tend to not have civilized discourse and instead want to dunk on everyone at every chance you get. But to open and close that discussion from my side, it is the same as heavyweight at the kids level - studs and duds, not much in between.

You’re not trying to argue that there are a comparable number of “studs” at 220 and heavyweight in high school compared to 106 are you? That’s pretty laughable if so.  I did previously acknowledge that there are a lot of novice 106’s however.  But the difference is those guys usually don’t end up placing at states like often happens at 220/heavyweight. 

21 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Obviously there are plenty of novice 106 pounders that were pulled out of the hallways, but on the whole they tend to be much more experienced and better technical wrestlers than 220’s/heavyweights.  @BruceyB pretty much summed up what my response would have been:

 

 

[alex1fly]

1 hour ago, Fletcher said:

We added 7 lbs. to each weight class in the 90s and it worked out fine. Kids are even bigger now and carrying more muscle - let's do it again.

118 was crazy small for adult men. 125 is too. Not many adult men walk around at 150 and below regardless of fitness and athleticism. 

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

And what were your results at heavyweight compared to 197?

That's a disingenuous question because of course I improved between my redshirt/frosh years to when I was a senior. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who didn't improve over five years. But I was substantially worse against top-tier competition (Mocco, Rowlands, Lowney etc) - my sweet spot to the surprise of no one in this thread was 96kg but that weight didn't exist during folk season.

[1032004]

29 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

That's a disingenuous question because of course I improved between my redshirt/frosh years to when I was a senior. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who didn't improve over five years. But I was substantially worse against top-tier competition (Mocco, Rowlands, Lowney etc) - my sweet spot to the surprise of no one in this thread was 96kg but that weight didn't exist during folk season.

How’d you do as a redshirt sophomore? I’m more interested in 1-year changes where improvements usually aren’t that significant.

I’ve previously given several examples of guys that bumped up in weight and struggled, seemingly primarily due to the weight increase.  Jack Mueller, Rayvon Foley, Stevan Micic in the recent past.  Anthony Noto appears to be one this year as he already has as many losses this season as he’s had in any other season.  Where you’d actually be hard pressed to find an example like that is guys that went from 197 to heavyweight.

[Gene Mills Fan]

A 210-239 pound athlete should be in a different weight class than a 240- 285 pound athlete! 

Guessing Maybe 60% college quarterbacks, corners, small running backs fit this demographic.

 

Edited Friday at 05:46 PM by Gene Mills Fan
added statement

[666]

43 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

A 210-239 pound athlete should be in a different weight class than a 240- 285 pound athlete! 

Guessing Maybe 60% college quarterbacks, corners, small running backs fit this demographic.

 

My Fr year in HS there wasn't even a 190 pound weight class, it went straight from 178 to unlimited HWT.  I saw guys who weighed around 180 pounds wrestling guys who weighed well over 300 pounds. There was a kid from Coweta who weighed 440 pounds. 

[Husker_Du]

125 

133

141

149

157

165 

175

190

205

285

any takers? 

 

 

[Gus]

20 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

125 

133

141

149

157

165 

175

190

205

285

any takers? 

 

 

215 instead of 205 and you got a deal

[Husker_Du]

if you weigh 215 you can make 205 after 1 practice.

if you weigh 225 you can put on good weight and have zero excuse at HWT.

we're back to the issue of people acting like all hwts weigh 285 except the tweeners. 

i'd like to get the weigh in sheets for the final day of NCAA's the last decade or so for the HWT finalists.

i'd put money of their average weight being around 245 ish.

Snyder, Cassar, Gable, Paris, Hendrickson...all 'small'

hell, Derek White had a completely uninteresting career at 197 then all of a sudden became a Top 2 guy at HWT. 

Zabriskie won a title and he was small as hell. he, White, Cassar....all three former 197's

the weight is atrociously thin. and despite 197 being relatively deep currently, it's historically been very thin.

there's no depth, guys. 

y'all are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. you're suggesting rule changes based off a few anecdotes. 

name me ONE guy....one guy...that didn't make his mark solely because he was in between 197 and HWT.

[Gus]

40 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

if you weigh 215 you can make 205 after 1 practice.

if you weigh 225 you can put on good weight and have zero excuse at HWT.

we're back to the issue of people acting like all hwts weigh 285 except the tweeners. 

i'd like to get the weigh in sheets for the final day of NCAA's the last decade or so for the HWT finalists.

i'd put money of their average weight being around 245 ish.

Snyder, Cassar, Gable, Paris, Hendrickson...all 'small'

hell, Derek White had a completely uninteresting career at 197 then all of a sudden became a Top 2 guy at HWT. 

Zabriskie won a title and he was small as hell. he, White, Cassar....all three former 197's

the weight is atrociously thin. and despite 197 being relatively deep currently, it's historically been very thin.

there's no depth, guys. 

y'all are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. you're suggesting rule changes based off a few anecdotes. 

name me ONE guy....one guy...that didn't make his mark solely because he was in between 197 and HWT.

My preference for 215 would be that it aligns well with 97kg for the next level.

[Husker_Du]

i get that. but the two circuits (World / NCAA) are not the same.

that talent pool is just not there. 

[nhs67]

14 hours ago, RockLobster said:

You just opened the door. I'll be referring to you as an old skinny bitch far more often than I already have.

I am okay with this.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

if you weigh 215 you can make 205 after 1 practice.

if you weigh 225 you can put on good weight and have zero excuse at HWT.

we're back to the issue of people acting like all hwts weigh 285 except the tweeners. 

i'd like to get the weigh in sheets for the final day of NCAA's the last decade or so for the HWT finalists.

i'd put money of their average weight being around 245 ish.

Snyder, Cassar, Gable, Paris, Hendrickson...all 'small'

hell, Derek White had a completely uninteresting career at 197 then all of a sudden became a Top 2 guy at HWT. 

Zabriskie won a title and he was small as hell. he, White, Cassar....all three former 197's

the weight is atrociously thin. and despite 197 being relatively deep currently, it's historically been very thin.

there's no depth, guys. 

y'all are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. you're suggesting rule changes based off a few anecdotes. 

name me ONE guy....one guy...that didn't make his mark solely because he was in between 197 and HWT.

Track has them for B1Gs and Tournaflex for National Duals.

At B1Gs last year there was only one at the 285 limit in Polar Bear.

Year before only one as well, forget who.

[Gus]

44 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

i get that. but the two circuits (World / NCAA) are not the same.

that talent pool is just not there. 

Another thought for the Olympic weight alignment... Why not 275 instead of 285 if that is what we are after?

[bnwtwg]

4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

How’d you do as a redshirt sophomore? I’m more interested in 1-year changes where improvements usually aren’t that significant.

I’ve previously given several examples of guys that bumped up in weight and struggled, seemingly primarily due to the weight increase.  Jack Mueller, Rayvon Foley, Stevan Micic in the recent past.  Anthony Noto appears to be one this year as he already has as many losses this season as he’s had in any other season.  Where you’d actually be hard pressed to find an example like that is guys that went from 197 to heavyweight.

Qualified frosh year, about the same record soph year but didn't qualify so I consider it a regression.

[bnwtwg]

2 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

name me ONE guy....one guy...that didn't make his mark solely because he was in between 197 and HWT.

I'll die on the hill that Jacob Warner would have been a 2x champ if a 97kg equivalent existed.

Edited Friday at 09:28 PM by bnwtwg

[davenowa]

what if there were to become consistency between NFHS and NCAA with a modified 13 weights/10 weights, such that the lower weight class increments did not exceed 7, and slightly increased for upper weights:

107   114  121 (HS Only)...then 10 "similar" weight classes of 

128   135   142   150   159   169   180   194   215   285

 

??   

[bnwtwg]

Last I checked we are extra salty because we didn't bring home any gold on the biggest stage(s) this year. So what if we treated our weight classes with the same respect that our athletes are rightfully receiving with NIL and get them aligned to the international experience?

[Husker_Du]

the number of college wrestlers who make Senior World teams is almost nil.

not to mention 98% don't turn around and make an international weight for months.

there's zero reason to suggest aligning collegiate weights with international solves anything.

[Gus]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

I'll die on the hill that Jacob Warner would have been a 2x champ if a 97kg equivalent existed.

I love Warner but his 97 kg results would suggest otherwise. 

[BruceyB]

4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

125 

133

141

149

157

165 

175

190

205

285

any takers? 

 

 

I'd probably move 205 to 210, but sign me up.

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

I'll die on the hill that Jacob Warner would have been a 2x champ if a 97kg equivalent existed.

ok, that's one guy. and i would disagree with it. what's the evidence of it. you're arguing that a 5x AA would have placed higher once? 

he actually made a final. weighed in in the morning.

JR Year - Lost to perhaps the smallest 197lb champ EVER 8 hours AFTER weigh ins - Max Dean. 

SR Year beat Silas Allred on RT. Silas is now a 184lber. Weight class was won by Aaron Brooks who started out as a 184lber.

SO Year lost to Myles Amine started as a 174 and only wrestled 197 to keep size on for the OLY.

FR Year lost to Shakur Rasheed who started out as a 165lber.

 

Weight / Size had nothing to do with him winning or losing.