Why Even Bother with a Wrestling Season?

[UsedToBe103]

On 12/30/2022 at 10:33 AM, Dark Energy said:

Wonder if the ‘grind’ would fell less crappy if we just went to mat side weigh-ins.  Take the crappiest part of wrestling - the hard weight cuts - out of the picture.  I’m no doctor but it might also help prevent injuries - less stress on body.  
 

Sorry - don’t mean to derail. But thought it was related.
 

 

 

I agree!

[UsedToBe103]

23 hours ago, MNRodent said:

Require a minimum number of matches to qualify for the post season and another minimum number to be seeded at nationals.  I don't know the exact numbers to suggest, maybe a minimum of 10 to qualify and 20 to be seeded.  I don't want the threshold so low that it eliminates legitimate injuries, but maybe those athletes forfeit their seed.

 

I'm in favor of this, and I'd add that the minimum number of matches can't be against teammates.

I'd also like to see medical forfeits count as losses and "ducks" - whether real or perceived - to be taken into consideration for seeding. i.e. if all other criteria is equal, wrestler A can't be seeded ahead of wrestler B just based on a previous year's result if wrestler A didn't wrestle in the dual.

[H82Lose]

2 minutes ago, UsedToBe103 said:

I'm in favor of this, and I'd add that the minimum number of matches can't be against teammates.

I'd also like to see medical forfeits count as losses and "ducks" - whether real or perceived - to be taken into consideration for seeding. i.e. if all other criteria is equal, wrestler A can't be seeded ahead of wrestler B just based on a previous year's result if wrestler A didn't wrestle in the dual.

I like it!

[Mike Parrish]

Weight cutting is the single worst thing in wrestling.

 

Matside weighins (for each match) end it completely.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

7 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Weight cutting is the single worst thing in wrestling.

True, without a doubt.

Every once in a while, watching tournaments like the last couple days, I catch myself daydreaming about how much better I would have been in college if I only knew then what I know now.

Then I wake up and remember the weight cuts.

Youthful optimism pushed me through things I can't imagine doing again. Like beating your head against a wall - after it's over, it doesn't seem near as bad. But it was.

If we don't make changes, nothing will change. Matside weigh-ins? I'm 100% in favor of trying it.

[Formally140]

Wrestling in America needs to make a choice. Do they want it to be the inclusive amazing sport that could actually compete with basketball and football if managed correctly.. or.. 

do they want it to be a rich kid and/or psycho dad, club sport that is “niche”. 

 

people will get triggered or offended if they want. But that’s honestly becoming the main question facing the sport 

[Plasmodium]

Compete with basketball?  Never has and never will.

Wrestling is doing well internationally.  Niche sport nationally, which is unchanged for decades.  The lack of emphasis on in season wrestling is new, so we'll see where that goes.

[Mike Parrish]

Again, our biggest failing is retention at the youth level.

Weight cutting is a large part of that.

[Formally140]

20 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Compete with basketball?  Never has and never will.

Wrestling is doing well internationally.  Niche sport nationally, which is unchanged for decades.  The lack of emphasis on in season wrestling is new, so we'll see where that goes.

Basketball didn’t magically take over. Their guys became ADs and into state associations and the NCAA. Same with football. they made strategic decisions and played the “filthy politics” that wrestling coaches won’t. 

Wrestling in America put itself in the position it’s in currently. The same way that it wasn’t really Title IX that cut a lot of programs. It was having the team of assholes with bad grades at many of those colleges. 

if people want wrestling to be a niche sport so they can claim tuff guy superiority and not risk more guys like Burroughs beating out their special “prodigy” they dragged around the  country.. that’s fine. He’ll there’s posters who never wrestled on this forum who very openly make that their whole thing. 

but I’m sick of this narrative that wrestling is a “victim” and could “never” be more than it is  and could “never ever” compete with the bigger sports. it’s a cop out and has a mentality exactly the opposite of what wrestling people claim to have.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Formally140
Grammar

[Cherkov]

4 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Basketball didn’t magically take over. Their guys became ADs and into state associations and the NCAA. Same with football. they made strategic decisions and played the “filthy politics” that wrestling coaches won’t. 

Wrestling in America put itself in the position it’s in currently. The same way that it wasn’t really Title IX that cut a lot of programs. It was having the team of assholes with bad grades at many of those colleges. 

if people want wrestling to be a niche sport so they can claim tuff guy superiority and not risk more guys like Burroughs beating out their special “prodigy” they dragged around the  country.. that’s fine. He’ll there’s posters who never wrestled on this forum who very openly make that their whole thing. 

but I’m sick of this narrative that wrestling is a “victim” and could “never” be more than it is  and could “never ever” compete with the bigger sports. it’s a cop out and has a mentality exactly the opposite of what wrestling people claim to have.

 

 

It's not always that simple. There are some skill heavy sports where the "started at high school off of own accord"  type has no chance to catch up to the "private individual lessons since the age of four" player. So everyone serious about it does it. 

[Formally140]

6 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Again, our biggest failing is retention at the youth level.

Weight cutting is a large part of that.

Mat side weigh ins won’t fix

1. Wrestling dads producing more and more kids that hate the sport and don’t let their kids wrestle. Which leaves aside the fact that the worst wrestling dads sucked at and/or never wrestled 

2. Coaches focusing on poaching rather than actually coaching the kids they have

3. youth coaches focusing on “winning” rather than numbers and retention 

4. club dads and coaches being the most vocal opponents of things to make wrestling more accessible

would may side weigh ins be good? Sure. Do they fix the actual issues.  Debatable 

[Formally140]

2 minutes ago, Cherkov said:

It's not always that simple. There are some skill heavy sports where the "started at high school off of own accord"  type has no chance to catch up to the "private individual lessons since the age of four" player. So everyone serious about it does it. 

What part of what I said had anything to do if people started the sport in hs or not

[Mike Parrish]

4 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Mat side weigh ins won’t fix

1. Wrestling dads producing more and more kids that hate the sport and don’t let their kids wrestle. Which leaves aside the fact that the worst wrestling dads sucked at and/or never wrestled 

2. Coaches focusing on poaching rather than actually coaching the kids they have

3. youth coaches focusing on “winning” rather than numbers and retention 

4. club dads and coaches being the most vocal opponents of things to make wrestling more accessible

would may side weigh ins be good? Sure. Do they fix the actual issues.  Debatable 

As a sport, we should fix what we can when we can.

[SetonHallPirate]

12 hours ago, UsedToBe103 said:

I'm in favor of this, and I'd add that the minimum number of matches can't be against teammates.

I'd also like to see medical forfeits count as losses and "ducks" - whether real or perceived - to be taken into consideration for seeding. i.e. if all other criteria is equal, wrestler A can't be seeded ahead of wrestler B just based on a previous year's result if wrestler A didn't wrestle in the dual.

Matches against teammates basically don't exist. They aren't even supposed to appear on the In-Season Record Form, in fact. (Rule 9.6.4)

[Formally140]

7 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

As a sport, we should fix what we can when we can.

I don’t disagree. But I think people keep dancing around the bigger issues 

[Mike Parrish]

1 minute ago, Formally140 said:

I don’t disagree. But I think people keep dancing around the bigger issues 

Order your list for me, please, biggest issue to smallest.

[Formally140]

Just now, Mike Parrish said:

Order your list for me, please, biggest issue to smallest.

Leaving aside I gave a list of bigger structural issues that lead to much bigger issues that and/or directly cause weight cutting..
 

Number one issue. People not confronting the actual problems head on because they’re buddies with people doing some of the things. 

The rest depend on how you approach the sport. And how honestly people want to confront the issues. And how sensitive they are to criticism.

[Mike Parrish]

2 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Leaving aside I gave a list of bigger structural issues that lead to much bigger issues that and/or directly cause weight cutting..
 

Number one issue. People not confronting the actual problems head on because they’re buddies with people doing some of the things. 

The rest depend on how you approach the sport. And how honestly people want to confront the issues. And how sensitive they are to criticism.

Upton Sinclair — 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'

Would you mind listing the underlying problems, as well.

[Jason Bryant]

Tuesday evening Jan 3rd at Rendezvous in Memphis.  If we can't finish that evening we'll rap things up Wed afternoon at Central BBQ.
PS:  Implementation subcommittee will meet Wed evening at  Commisary in Collierville.

I usually fly into Memphis when I announce home duals at Little Rock. I need to create a start at Rendezvous my next trip in. My wife was on a consulting job in Millington for a stretch and they would hit Rendezvous before flying home on the weekend.

[Formally140]

17 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Upton Sinclair — 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'

Would you mind listing the underlying problems, as well.

Sigh, if you want everyone to agree that there should be mat side weigh-ins . I already said I’m okay with them. I just don’t think that will fix psycho dads dragging johnny around the country and making them hate the sport. 
 

Again, leaving aside you are conveniently ignoring what I’ve said already. As well as the fact you’ll become a cry bully if it becomes convenient.

underlying problems:

1. A significant subsection of wrestling people don’t actually “really” want to grow the sport. They don’t want a world where a kid who joins after 6th grade can’t catch the kid who started earlier. Those people almost always are the most vocal against things like; mat side weigh ins, two pieces, girls wrestling, not immediately running psycho practices, and not running off new kids.

2. coaches/ wrestling people not being willing to play “politics” and/or understand basic things like no one wants to be at tournaments for 12 hours. 

3. wrestling people doing the tuff guy attitude but also playing the victim and acting entitled. 
 

4. The current focus on “just” NCAA and state results leading to all these forfeits and dodging marquee matchups 

I could go in but I’m trying to enjoy new years 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Formally140
Grammar

[Mike Parrish]

1 hour ago, Formally140 said:

Sigh, if you want everyone to agree that there should be mat side weigh-ins . I already said I’m okay with them. I just don’t think that will fix psycho dads dragging johnny around the country and making them hate the sport. 
 

Again, leaving aside you are conveniently ignoring what I’ve said already. As well as the fact you’ll become a cry bully if it becomes convenient.

 

It was an honest question, but given this, nevermind.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Mike Parrish

[Formally140]

1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

It was an honest question, but given this, nevermind.

I gave you an answer beyond that. If you’re going to hyper focus on that so be it

[Mike Parrish]

Just now, Formally140 said:

I gave you an answer beyond that. If you’re going to hyper focus on that so be it

I was genuinely curious what you saw as the biggest problems and why, since I likely have a different view.

You decided to be an asshole.

[Formally140]

1 minute ago, Mike Parrish said:

I was genuinely curious what you saw as the biggest problems and why, since I likely have a different view.

You decided to be an asshole.

Again, if you’re going to focus on that so be it. I answered your question and gave you my answer. Blame your post history for why I’m wary of you 

[Tigerfan]

4 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

I usually fly into Memphis when I announce home duals at Little Rock. I need to create a start at Rendezvous my next trip in. My wife was on a consulting job in Millington for a stretch and they would hit Rendezvous before flying home on the weekend.

Jason, are you announcing the Scuffle?