Thoughts on the Longshoremen Strike?

[wrestlingguy]

My personal take is that it is going to push them towards even more automation.

[Scouts Honor]

they took one look at the auto workers deal... and thought.. hmmm

[WrestlingRasta]

6 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

My personal take is that it is going to push them towards even more automation.

I’m on their side as far as all of the AI taking human jobs.  I’m not on their side of 62% pay raise over the next six years. 5% a year is a much more likable number.  And I agree with you it could lead to more automation. 

Edited October 3 by WrestlingRasta

[wrestlingguy]

1 minute ago, WrestlingRasta said:

I’m on their side as far as all of the AI taking human jobs.  I’m not on their side of 62% pay raise over the next six years. 5% a year is a much more likable number.  And I agree with you it could lead to more automation. 

I don't like that they act like they aren't paid very well. It's a tough situation.

[Bigbrog]

It isn't very good optics either when the head of the union is crying about pay when he takes home ~$900k/year

[Scouts Honor]

this is the problem with unions.

its just more corruption like GOVT.

they complain about CEO's.. but.. yeah.

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

I’m on their side as far as all of the AI taking human jobs.  I’m not on their side of 62% pay raise over the next six years. 5% a year is a much more likable number.  And I agree with you it could lead to more automation. 

Imagine during the Industrial Revolution…..  

Business owner:  do you know who Eli Whitney is?   
 

Union backing liberal:  nope   

Business owner:   he invented the cotton gin   It greatly improved the efficiency of cotton processing.   It will significantly boost the textile industry   

Union liberal:   nah    That sounds like  terrible idea.   Tech advances are bad for workers we can’t use that.

imagine if we had that attitude for steam engines, or spinning Jenny’s or the telegraph.  

old blue haired union liberal shaking hands at clouds:    The telegraph!!!! Do you know what that would do to the workers in the pony express or the mail carriers!!!!!!!!

[WrestlingRasta]

3 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Imagine during the Industrial Revolution…..  

Business owner:  do you know who Eli Whitney is?   
 

Union backing liberal:  nope   

Business owner:   he invented the cotton gin   It greatly improved the efficiency of cotton processing.   It will significantly boost the textile industry   

Union liberal:   nah    That sounds like  terrible idea.   Tech advances are bad for workers we can’t use that.

imagine if we had that attitude for steam engines, or spinning Jenny’s or the telegraph.  

old blue haired union liberal shaking hands at clouds:    The telegraph!!!! Do you know what that would do to the workers in the pony express or the mail carriers!!!!!!!!

That’s valid. 

[Paul158]

Just looking at the timing of this. It's really bad. One of the worst Hurricanes just hit a large portion of our country causing well over 100 billion dollars of damage. It's been a week now and it's really bad. You have a huge mess in the middle east. With a much larger war possibly going to break out. You have the entire country struggling from the high inflation with no end in sight. Then you have the election in 30 days. So, you a large union going on strike wanting a 77% raise over 6 years. Thats a 12% per raise per year. They make around 81,000 per year with lots of overtime available. That puts them over 100,000 a year. the crane operators with overtime are at 300,0000 a year. If the strike lasts more than a few days most Americans will not be very supportive. The strike will make inflation worse. Then the union does not want to allow any  automation. That I think will be a huge problem for them. They will need to compromise on that. This isn't 1940 anymore. Every industry has had to automate over the last 80 years in order to stay competitive. Most of all the ports in the world have already automated their ports. This is not a good time to strike with unreasonable demands.

[Caveira]

52 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Just looking at the timing of this. It's really bad. One of the worst Hurricanes just hit a large portion of our country causing well over 100 billion dollars of damage. It's been a week now and it's really bad. You have a huge mess in the middle east. With a much larger war possibly going to break out. You have the entire country struggling from the high inflation with no end in sight. Then you have the election in 30 days. So, you a large union going on strike wanting a 77% raise over 6 years. Thats a 12% per raise per year. They make around 81,000 per year with lots of overtime available. That puts them over 100,000 a year. the crane operators with overtime are at 300,0000 a year. If the strike lasts more than a few days most Americans will not be very supportive. The strike will make inflation worse. Then the union does not want to allow any  automation. That I think will be a huge problem for them. They will need to compromise on that. This isn't 1940 anymore. Every industry has had to automate over the last 80 years in order to stay competitive. Most of all the ports in the world have already automated their ports. This is not a good time to strike with unreasonable demands.

I have a solution.  
 

Tell them…. Drum roll….. mic drop……

 

Don’t 

 

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=don't

[Lipdrag]

50 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Just looking at the timing of this. It's really bad.

When is a good time for a crippling strike?  Would good timing have been to strike during COVID shutdowns?  By bad do you mean "in the union's interest"?  Maximum pressure is the point of a strike.

[Paul158]

I have no problem striking with reasonable demands. In 2024 you are demanding no automation. That seems like a death wish. The 77 percent raise over 6 years seems a little unreasonable especially when you can be replaced with machines. I believe after a few weeks of this and the cost of everything starts to go up and products become scarce on the shelves public opinion of the unions will turn. I wonder how the unions would feel if they were replaced by 45,000 illegal immigrants. That would take away their maximum pressure. They, the unions may get by this time around, but they are sealing their fate. 

[wrestlingguy]

Just now, Paul158 said:

I have no problem striking with reasonable demands. In 2024 you are demanding no automation. That seems like a death wish. The 77 percent raise over 6 years seems a little unreasonable especially when you can be replaced with machines. I believe after a few weeks of this and the cost of everything starts to go up and products become scarce on the shelves public opinion of the unions will turn. I wonder how the unions would feel if they were replaced by 45,000 illegal immigrants. That would take away their maximum pressure. They, the unions may get by this time around, but they are sealing their fate. 

I just read where the West Coast Union got a six year contract with a 32% raise so i feel like what they are offering the East Coast union is reasonable. They are offering to increase wages by 50% and to triple employer contributions to retirement. In comparison to the West Coast Union I think it's beyond reasonable unless there is something I am missing.

[WrestlingRasta]

4 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

I just read where the West Coast Union got a six year contract with a 32% raise so i feel like what they are offering the East Coast union is reasonable. They are offering to increase wages by 50% and to triple employer contributions to retirement. In comparison to the West Coast Union I think it's beyond reasonable unless there is something I am missing.

The offer also had some level of protections with the automation, although I don’t recall those details. 

[Paul158]

7 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

I just read where the West Coast Union got a six year contract with a 32% raise so i feel like what they are offering the East Coast union is reasonable. They are offering to increase wages by 50% and to triple employer contributions to retirement. In comparison to the West Coast Union I think it's beyond reasonable unless there is something I am missing.

I think the no automation is going to be a point on contention. This is 2024. Automation in every industry has been around for a long time. Most of the ports around the world have been automated already for 20 years. 

Edited October 3 by Paul158

[wrestlingguy]

31 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

I think the no automation is going to be a point on contention. This is 2024. Automation in every industry has been around for a long time. Most of the ports around the world have been automated already for 20 years. 

Yeah they need to be realistic.

[WrestlingRasta]

I would imagine their expectation is not at all a total ban, but you start there at the negotiating table and work back to what you're comfortable with.  

It appears they agreed on tentative deal for wages, $4 raise every year the next six years, and are going back to work tomorrow.  Haven't seen anything regarding the pension plan and automation.

[Paul158]

32 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

I would imagine their expectation is not at all a total ban, but you start there at the negotiating table and work back to what you're comfortable with.  

It appears they agreed on tentative deal for wages, $4 raise every year the next six years, and are going back to work tomorrow.  Haven't seen anything regarding the pension plan and automation.

They must have been reading our thread here and decided that the timing was bad for a strike. I think someone was going to invoke the Taft-Hartley Act if the union wasn't going to make some sort of temporary compromise. So cooler heads prevailed for now. 

[ionel]

7 hours ago, Paul158 said:

I think the no automation is going to be a point on contention. This is 2024. Automation in every industry has been around for a long time. Most of the ports around the world have been automated already for 20 years. 

Many other country ports are automated.  Report is Rotterdam began automation 30 years ago.   The union demands are just arguing for automation.  

[Saylors_Tiny_Willie]

The inevitable move to automation will dwindle the numbers of the longshoremen.

This is their attempt to cash out prior to that happening.

Buggy whip manufacturers.

[mspart]

The US has the most inefficient port system because of the lack of automation.   That can't continue indefinitely. 

 

I remember years ago when Northwest Airlines mechanics got rid of their union because of no contract for a few years.   They voted in a new union who said they would get industry leading wages and benefits.   And they did.   Now Northwest did a lot of their own maintenance.   So a year or so after that contract was signed, the shops were all closed and those guys lost their jobs to cheaper labor elsewhere.    They priced themselves right out of the market.   Management totally used that new union to get where they wanted to go. 

mspart

[Saylors_Tiny_Willie]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

The US has the most inefficient port system because of the lack of automation.   That can't continue indefinitely. 

 

I remember years ago when Northwest Airlines mechanics got rid of their union because of no contract for a few years.   They voted in a new union who said they would get industry leading wages and benefits.   And they did.   Now Northwest did a lot of their own maintenance.   So a year or so after that contract was signed, the shops were all closed and those guys lost their jobs to cheaper labor elsewhere.    They priced themselves right out of the market.   Management totally used that new union to get where they wanted to go. 

mspart

The sooner the conversion to full automation, the better for everyone.

[Scouts Honor]

i shoulda been a union boss

 

[wrestlingguy]

1 minute ago, Scouts Honor said:

i shoulda been a union boss

 

That is theft!! If that is the case why do they care about automation so much? You would think they would want it so they can sit on their butts too and collect royalties.

[Saylors_Tiny_Willie]

50 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

That is theft!! If that is the case why do they care about automation so much? You would think they would want it so they can sit on their butts too and collect royalties.

When automation comes in, the number of jobs drops.