National Debt

[billyhoyle]

Is this an issue that anyone in this country cares about anymore? The last president that actually was able to limit the growth of the national debt was Clinton, who had to compromise with a Republican Congess.  It actually was a pretty good recipe for economic success.  Trump has now proposed to eliminate taxes on: Tips, social security, and overtime pay.  He also has proposed free IVF for all Americans (average cost is $15,000 per cycle, and it usually takes 2-3 cycles).  Combined, these are going to add billions to the debt. Obviously, Harris isn't proposing anything that would help the debt since that's not what democrats do.  Does anybody give a shit about the national debt anymore or are we just going to have to keep printing money/devaluing the currency? Is there any chance that the Republicans will ever nominate a fiscal conservative again?

 

[Saylors_Tiny_Willie]

Trump's a 'Pink Sock' on the national debt issue.

[Lipdrag]

Until the leadership sets the inflation target at 0% and we add an amendment to the Constitution which removes the authority of the Congress from passing legislation containing a deficit or from passing legislation planning to spend more than 15% of GDP - except in a single year of emergency declared by a supermajority in congress and which cannot be declared by an executive branch office holder - then there is no purpose in even talking about the deficit/debt.  Therefore, cut taxes to the bone because there is no relationship between how much I pay and how big the deficit is.  In fact, the more I pay the bigger the deficit and debt become.  So cut my taxes and keep cutting them until spending is blocked by higher authority (the Constitution).

[billyhoyle]

4 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

Until the leadership sets the inflation target at 0% and we add an amendment to the Constitution which removes the authority of the Congress from passing legislation containing a deficit or from passing legislation planning to spend more than 15% of GDP - except in a single year of emergency declared by a supermajority in congress and which cannot be declared by an executive branch office holder - then there is no purpose in even talking about the deficit/debt.  Therefore, cut taxes to the bone because there is no relationship between how much I pay and how big the deficit is.  In fact, the more I pay the bigger the deficit and debt become.  So cut my taxes and keep cutting them until spending is blocked by higher authority (the Constitution).

What are you talking about? This simply isn't true.  Cutting taxes and increasing spending both contribute to the debt.  Do you actually care about the national debt or is your aim to just pay less in taxes?

[jross]

I read that as the gov does not care so they should quit ***ducking** us over with taxes and pretending like they do.

[red viking]

Unreal. The same people that complain about the debt also complain about taxes being too high. They actually think that lowering taxes will decrease the debt & deficit. 

People need to take econ 101. 

[red viking]

9 hours ago, Lipdrag said:

Until the leadership sets the inflation target at 0% and we add an amendment to the Constitution which removes the authority of the Congress from passing legislation containing a deficit or from passing legislation planning to spend more than 15% of GDP - except in a single year of emergency declared by a supermajority in congress and which cannot be declared by an executive branch office holder - then there is no purpose in even talking about the deficit/debt.  Therefore, cut taxes to the bone because there is no relationship between how much I pay and how big the deficit is.  In fact, the more I pay the bigger the deficit and debt become.  So cut my taxes and keep cutting them until spending is blocked by higher authority (the Constitution).

Unreal ignorance. Take an Econ 101 course. 

[Lipdrag]

The only relationship between taxes and deficit and debt is a positive one.  I mean "positive" in the mathematical correlation sense and not in the sense of "a good thing".  The government collects more tax revenue than it ever has before yet the deficit/debt is accelerating.  Therefore, until those in charge behave as if deficits, inflation, etc. matter by passing only balanced budgets then I don't care about it either.  Arguing about whether 1 trillion or 1.2 trillion annual deficit is "more ethical" is ludicrous and I will not engage with those "eminent Econ 101 geniuses" stating that it does.  If the budget is balanced then I am completely comfortable with paying my fair share of the federal taxes - about 1/330,000.000 of the total amount required.  But the government has broken faith and now the only rational response is to keep as much as my own money as I can and to keep supporting whomever wants to let me keep it the easiest.  This is a form of game theory.  If you know the other side is playing by different rules then the only rational response for survival is to modify your behavior first.  Econ 101 has nothing to do with it, obviously.  This is a matter of human nature, power politics, and control.  

So, First - Balanced budget, Fed Government revenue capped at 15% of GDP, 0% inflation target.  THEN we can talk about whom to tax and how to tax them to secure the necessary revenue.  But you leftie econ geniuses who think "give the government the money and shut up" is a valid economic theory should tender a proposal.

So, if we aren't talking about economics but about electoral politics two strategies are emerging:  One side is trying to give people others people's money via housing credits, loan forgiveness, etc (i.e. raising gov spending).  The other side is proposing to let you keep more of your own money via targeted tax relief (i.e. lowering gov revenue).  Both are playing con games that don't matter until we have . . . wait for it . . . Balanced budget, Fed Government revenue capped at 15% of GDP, 0% inflation target.

[jross]

2 hours ago, red viking said:

Unreal. The same people that complain about the debt also complain about taxes being too high. They actually think that lowering taxes will decrease the debt & deficit. 

People need to take econ 101. 

...or many people believe that taxes should be minimized and the government spending less than its revenue.

[mspart]

Interesting concept, a budget surplus.   How do we get there?  Spend less than you bring in.   Current formula is to spend way more than they bring in.  

mspart

[Scouts Honor]

did some math today.

the book says that if the price goes up, profit goes down and vice versa.

a tax cut will create MORE spending, b/c people will be willing to spend more if they have to pay less to the GOVT

[Scouts Honor]

btw, does anyone know why the spending problem is so bad?

it starts with this little question:

draw a line on a piece of paper.

put million on one end and trillion on the other.

now, the question:

where does billion go? 

Edited September 17 by Scouts Honor

[Scouts Honor]

this is one of the other reasons the debt is so large

 

[WrestlingRasta]

[wrestlingguy]

16 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Peak Covid time. Makes sense. More people were dependent on the government because everything was shut down and a lot of people lost their jobs.

[WrestlingRasta]

Agreed. Covid caused a major outlier 

[Paul158]

4 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

Peak Covid time. Makes sense. More people were dependent on the government because everything was shut down and a lot of people lost their jobs.

The economy was booming going into covid. Had we had the economy we have now going into covid we would have hit a deficit of 5 to 6 trillion dollars or more for 4 years in a row. It would have been really close to the great depression. 

[wrestlingguy]

29 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Bill Clinton with the only negative year. Hard to believe that was ever a thing seeing where we are now.

[mspart]

You notice that the deficit skyrocketed in 2020 but is still at record highs except for 2009.   I'm guessing that was a result of the banking crisis where a lot of spending happened.   So Biden has done nothing to get the deficit back to where it was before he was president or VP even. 

mspart

Edited September 17 by mspart

[billyhoyle]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

You notice that the deficit skyrocketed in 2020 but is still at record highs except for 2009.   I'm guessing that was a result of the banking crisis where a lot of spending happened.   So Biden has done nothing to get the deficit back to where it was before he was president or VP even. 

mspart

When Obama was President, there was pressure from the republicans in congress to bring the debt under control.  They actually did their job. Same thing happened when Clinton was president.  The problem is that Bush cut taxes rather than focus on the debt, and then Trump both increased spending AND cut taxes. Biden then overdid the stimulus following Covid without raising taxes. 

Now Trump is proposing billions in tax cuts and spending increases, and Harris is proposing slightly less in tax cuts/spending but still a number of irresponsible policies. Nobody gives a shit about the deficit/debt. What would happen if a Republican candidate actually ran on decreasing the deficit? isn't that something that would be nice where you could compare the policies of tax/spend democrats vs a fiscally responsible conservative? Why have the Republicans become a party of even more debt than the Democrats?

Edited September 18 by billyhoyle

[billyhoyle]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

You notice that the deficit skyrocketed in 2020 but is still at record highs except for 2009.   I'm guessing that was a result of the banking crisis where a lot of spending happened.   So Biden has done nothing to get the deficit back to where it was before he was president or VP even. 

mspart

Nobody, including Biden, wants to deal with the crying that would happen from either raising taxes or cutting spending.  There is all this talk about how nobody can afford groceries, yet many people (who are not rich at all) are shelling out thousands for Taylor swift tickets and designer bags, overpriced uber eats delivery, a million different streaming services, etc. I don't buy at all that things are difficult right now for the middle class-in fact I think we are spending out of control and selling out future generations so people today can live beyond their means. 

[Scouts Honor]

as i posted earlier about GOVT corruption.

someone in another thread awhile back posted that GOVT spending was better b/c of the lack of corruption

i give the dept of education

[Scouts Honor]

different people would be crying in each scenario

[Scouts Honor]

but some of the same people if taxes were raised.

especially the middle class. who already experienced the largest tax increase in the history of our nation, obamacare.

[Scouts Honor]