Ben Askren - If you are high schooler who wants to go to Iowa, don't

[Mr. PeanutButter]

24 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I thought the rumored number for Woods was $100k.  If a wrestling scholarship is not available, which there might not be for transfers which come in after the season ends, $100k isn't exactly buku dollars.  Usually scholarship dollars are given to incoming freshman who are mostly all committed before NCAAs, so there might not be scholarship dollars soon offer in April and I'd be really shocked there was some available in August unless the departures freed up some money.  Scholarship monies are not taxed, but if some dude is going to pay you $100k for a couple appearances or something, you'll owe state and federal taxes possibly self employment tax on top of that.  Then Iowa will charge you tuition, room, board, books, ect which for an out of state student is nearly $50k.

$500k is more than the salary of some coaches, but not Tom Brands who is set to make $700k this season.  Coaches are also employees who receive a variety of benefits a wrestler getting $500k from a booster does not.  I think even Terry's $400k as an employee is better than the rumored deal Buchanan received.

 

Who knows how all of this works and how the payments are dolled out (and hence, what the tax burden might be). There are no documents available and until the involved parties spill the beans all the rumors are just that. I find 500k to be u n b e l i e v a b l e and don't care how much the internet personalities (none of whom are even liked by the brass in IC) bloviate

[Wrestleknownothing]

Here is why I think $500k is puffery.

North Dakota State dominates FCS football. They have won 17 national titles. They last won in 2021 and made the finals in 2022 and the semis in 2023. They have their players poached on an annual basis.

In a recent interview their coach talked about this. He said he advises his guys to ignore the $100k offers that come from  Group of 5 conference schools, bet on themselves, spend another year at NDSU and try to get a $500k offer from a Power 5 conference school. 

If football players are getting offered $500k to go to top programs, I just do not see a wrestler getting offered $500k. Sure there are QBs getting a lot more than that, but QB is a class of its own even within football.

As for the scholarship offer argument, the analysis I have seen is wrong. Let's say a wrestler stays put at SDSU and keeps his scholarship. That is worth about $23k for a year. If instead, he transfers to Iowa and gets $100k, but has to pay for college, that costs about $46k per year, or $23k per semester. If he goes for a full year he nets $54k ($77k if only a semester). Will he get $50 - $75k in NIL to stay at SDSU? Is $50 - $75k enough to get him to move? Remember, we are talking about a college kid who hasn't sniffed $50k in his life, and is likely to make that about that much coming out of SDSU with a construction management degree. So it is like getting another year of salary.

Here is another reason I think $500k is not happening. If the offers really are for $500k for one year or one semester, then I would say someone is a fool for not taking it. If you are a PSU wrestler and someone offers you $500k to switch schools, then you have to do it. Until you see someone leaving PSU, or Iowa, or OSU to go to one of the others, I just do not believe $500k is real.

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

nets $54k

- minus taxes right ?   They have to pay ordinary income on that no?   Are they considered self employed too?     + self employment tax then too….  
 

are they allowed to form an LLC and write off let’s say any expenses related to their nil?   

Edited September 9 by Caveira

[Wrestleknownothing]

29 minutes ago, Caveira said:

- minus taxes right ?   They have to pay ordinary income on that no?   Are they considered self employed too?     + self employment tax then too….  
 

are they allowed to form an LLC and write off let’s say any expenses related to their nil?   

I assume they have to pay taxes, but that is better than no taxes. No taxes means no income.

The net I was referring to was net of tuition.

Edited September 9 by Wrestleknownothing

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I assume they have to pay taxes, but that is better than no taxes. No taxes means no income.

I only mean the math is slightly worse than you’re depicting.   Not that you did it wrong.  They prolly start with 65/70 of the 100 tops.   If 46 goes to tuition they’re left with … not that much.  
 

[MPhillips]

3 minutes ago, Caveira said:

If 46 goes to tuition they’re left with … not that much.  

About 24 more than they had with the scholly...

[Wrestleknownothing]

8 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I only mean the math is slightly worse than you’re depicting.   Not that you did it wrong.  They prolly start with 65/70 of the 100 tops.   If 46 goes to tuition they’re left with … not that much.  
 

You say not that much, but compared to what? A college kid is not coming across 54k before taxes.

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You say not that much, but compared to what? A college kid is not coming across 54k before taxes.

I’m not saying it’s not a lot per se.  But it’s close ish to like a work study job no ?     Maybe a pretty very good work study job.  
 

I’ve not paid self employment tax in a long time.  But Google says it’s around 15.3% which is another 15k gone to Uncle Sam if true. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

I’m not saying it’s not a lot per se.  But it’s close ish to like a work study job no ?     Maybe a pretty very good work study job.  
 

I’ve not paid self employment tax in a long time.  But Google says it’s around 15.3% which is another 15k gone to Uncle Sam if true. 

As long as you are googling you should try looking up the average annual work-study earnings. Hint: $1,850. That is considerably less than $100,000 dollars. Remember that you only get work-study if you do not have a scholarship. 

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

“Why can I edit something I’m quoting….    “

[Caveira]

Just now, Caveira said:

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

“Why can I edit something I’m quoting….    “

I assume some of them / most are not on scollly because of nil?   Also I assume they get more work study than avg peeps because of their participation in sports.  I feel like I got more in the late 90s. 
 

I’m not bashing on the nil just saying make sure to add taxes to the equation.  

[juniorvarsity]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:11 PM, alex1fly said:

Again this is where the details of NIL should be public knowledge or it needs to be reformed to be more equitable like having one NIL fund per roster that gets distributed equally among that roster. 

Ok comrade 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You say not that much, but compared to what? A college kid is not coming across 54k before taxes.

Taxes would be owed on $23k/$46k in tuition too.  He might have $54k after tuition and educational expenses and before taxes, but taxes are owed on the full $100k, so it's worse than earning $54k before taxes.  Now there are some educational tax credits and deductions that can be taken but deductions are capped far below $46k or even $23k and the tax credit begins a phase out at $80k.  Maybe the $100k payment is split over two tax years as are the educational expenses so that isn't an issue and those can be maxed out, but he likely still has to deal with self employment tax.

8 hours ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

 

Who knows how all of this works and how the payments are dolled out (and hence, what the tax burden might be). There are no documents available and until the involved parties spill the beans all the rumors are just that. I find 500k to be u n b e l i e v a b l e and don't care how much the internet personalities (none of whom are even liked by the brass in IC) bloviate

I don't know if $500k is accurate, but my point is that if an NIL payment is being made in place of a scholarship or to exceed the scholarship limits then it has to be pretty large.  There is a tax advantage to scholarships that NIL payments do not enjoy and tuition is pretty crazy high today.  This is likely the case for a wrestling transfer happening in August. Doesn't mean $500k is accurate, but I think the starting point for a preseason #1 to leave a scholarship is $100k.

[Wrestleknownothing]

20 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Taxes would be owed on $23k/$46k in tuition too.  He might have $54k after tuition and educational expenses and before taxes, but taxes are owed on the full $100k, so it's worse than earning $54k before taxes.  Now there are some educational tax credits and deductions that can be taken but deductions are capped far below $46k or even $23k and the tax credit begins a phase out at $80k.  Maybe the $100k payment is split over two tax years as are the educational expenses so that isn't an issue and those can be maxed out, but he likely still has to deal with self employment tax.

I don't know if $500k is accurate, but my point is that if an NIL payment is being made in place of a scholarship or to exceed the scholarship limits then it has to be pretty large.  There is a tax advantage to scholarships that NIL payments do not enjoy and tuition is pretty crazy high today.  This is likely the case for a wrestling transfer happening in August. Doesn't mean $500k is accurate, but I think the starting point for a preseason #1 to leave a scholarship is $100k.

So call it $125k or $150k, it is still not $500k for a zero time champion.

Now given that Carter Starocci says he is willing to put up $300k against AJ Ferrari's $300k to wrestle at 190, maybe a 4x time champ can command that. On the other hand, Starocci is a self-reported disinterested student, so it is very possible he does not know that he does not have $300k.

A second possibility is he is confident Ferrari does not have it, making his own financial standing moot.

Now, if each have the 300 large I am willing to hold it for them until this is settled.

[fishbane]

53 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I assume some of them / most are not on scollly because of nil?   Also I assume they get more work study than avg peeps because of their participation in sports.  I feel like I got more in the late 90s. 

I think number quoted for work study comes from federal work study money.  Not every college student with a job has a job on campus and not all on campus jobs are paid with federal work study dollars.  I think most of my college classmates made more in $1850 in income annually.

[Gus]

31 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

So call it $125k or $150k, it is still not $500k for a zero time champion.

Now given that Carter Starocci says he is willing to put up $300k against AJ Ferrari's $300k to wrestle at 190, maybe a 4x time champ can command that. On the other hand, Starocci is a self-reported disinterested student, so it is very possible he does not know that he does not have $300k.

A second possibility is he is confident Ferrari does not have it, making his own financial standing moot.

Now, if each have the 300 large I am willing to hold it for them until this is settled.

Or he is betting $300k that AJ cannot ever make 190lbs

[flyingcement]

About 20 years ago, I earned a half scholarship to my college and so I went full-time, living in the dorm and then apartments off campus all up in Boston.  But I always worked at least 30 hours a week in some manner - never on campus which were the lowest paying jobs.  I waited tables at two high end places. I made 35K on average during those years while waiting tables on the side of being a full time student.  A lot of that I was able to take home under the table in cash tips.  

Where there is a will there is a way.  I think its good to have an uncomfortable schedule if you want to build character.  My freshman year of college, I did breakfast shifts on weekends in fancy hotels.  I never went to bed after parties.  Just brought a bag with a change of clothes and starting setting up shop at the Lennox Hotel at 5AM.  Public transportation not open at that time, so I'd walk in the snow (old man river LOL).  I'd drink a lot of coffee, and on the walk home, in the Prudential Center, I'd stop into the Sharper Image store, and sit on the massage chair for about fifteen minutes before continuing my journey home to sleep at around 2PM

Edited September 10 by flyingcement

[Wrestleknownothing]

9 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

About 20 years ago, I earned a half scholarship to my college and so I went full-time, living in the dorm and then apartments off campus all up in Boston.  But I always worked at least 30 hours a week in some manner - never on campus which were the lowest paying jobs.  I waited tables at two high end places. I made 35K on average during those years while waiting tables on the side of being a full time student.  A lot of that I was able to take home under the table in cash tips.  

Where there is a will there is a way.  I think its good to have an uncomfortable schedule if you want to build character.  My freshman year of college, I did breakfast shifts on weekends in fancy hotels.  I never went to bed after parties.  Just brought a bag with a change of clothes and starting setting up shop at the Lennox Hotel at 5AM.  Public transportation not open at that time, so I'd walk in the snow (old man river LOL).  I'd drink a lot of coffee, and on the walk home, in the Prudential Center, I'd stop into the Sharper Image store, and sit on the massage chair for about fifteen minutes before continuing my journey home to sleep at around 2PM

I am thinking neither Teemer nor Parco nor Buchannan had similar schedules.

[flyingcement]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I am thinking neither Teemer nor Parco nor Buchannan had similar schedules.

Absolutely.  I was on the club wrestling team and played daily pickup basketball which were not demanding in the slightest.  Club wrestling was easier than middle school  

[Caveira]

21 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I am thinking neither Teemer nor Parco nor Buchannan had similar schedules.

Do you think athletes don’t get Cush on campus jobs?   I was d3 and I did.   I also did somewhat similar to @flyingcement’s post.  Maybe diff jobs but very similar.   

[Wrestleknownothing]

4 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Do you think athletes don’t get Cush on campus jobs?   I was d3 and I did.   I also did somewhat similar to @flyingcement’s post.  Maybe diff jobs but very similar.   

The key part of that sentence is D3.

And what does a cush job matter? If they could have one at ASU or SDSU, they can have one at Iowa, its a push.

[1032004]

7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Here is why I think $500k is puffery.

North Dakota State dominates FCS football. They have won 17 national titles. They last won in 2021 and made the finals in 2022 and the semis in 2023. They have their players poached on an annual basis.

In a recent interview their coach talked about this. He said he advises his guys to ignore the $100k offers that come from  Group of 5 conference schools, bet on themselves, spend another year at NDSU and try to get a $500k offer from a Power 5 conference school. 

If football players are getting offered $500k to go to top programs, I just do not see a wrestler getting offered $500k. Sure there are QBs getting a lot more than that, but QB is a class of its own even within football.

As for the scholarship offer argument, the analysis I have seen is wrong. Let's say a wrestler stays put at SDSU and keeps his scholarship. That is worth about $23k for a year. If instead, he transfers to Iowa and gets $100k, but has to pay for college, that costs about $46k per year, or $23k per semester. If he goes for a full year he nets $54k ($77k if only a semester). Will he get $50 - $75k in NIL to stay at SDSU? Is $50 - $75k enough to get him to move? Remember, we are talking about a college kid who hasn't sniffed $50k in his life, and is likely to make that about that much coming out of SDSU with a construction management degree. So it is like getting another year of salary.

Here is another reason I think $500k is not happening. If the offers really are for $500k for one year or one semester, then I would say someone is a fool for not taking it. If you are a PSU wrestler and someone offers you $500k to switch schools, then you have to do it. Until you see someone leaving PSU, or Iowa, or OSU to go to one of the others, I just do not believe $500k is real.

$500k doesn’t make sense but with the number of people that have reported that number including trustworthy ones like Willie, I believe it.   Thinking back to Alirez, wasn’t it rumored that both Iowa AND OSU offered $500k?  I know there have been comments about why it always seems like Iowa’s offers are the only ones that get leaked, but in that case it wasn’t.

And as you mention it certainly seems like Starocci has some money to throw around, which I do think is evidence there could be truth to these numbers.

[fishbane]

6 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

North Dakota State dominates FCS football. They have won 17 national titles. They last won in 2021 and made the finals in 2022 and the semis in 2023. They have their players poached on an annual basis.

In a recent interview their coach talked about this. He said he advises his guys to ignore the $100k offers that come from  Group of 5 conference schools, bet on themselves, spend another year at NDSU and try to get a $500k offer from a Power 5 conference school. 

Why wouldn't they bet on themselves, take the $100k and transfer to a Group of 5 school, and then after a year see if they couldn't get a $500k transfer offer to a Power 5 school? 

6 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

If football players are getting offered $500k to go to top programs, I just do not see a wrestler getting offered $500k. Sure there are QBs getting a lot more than that, but QB is a class of its own even within football.

I think "top programs" is being used loosely here.  Over the past two seasons, 3 NDSU players have transferred to Power 5 conferences and their destinations have been Kansas State, Kansas, and ISU. One guy is the starting Safety for K-State, another plays DL and isn't a starter at Kansas, and the last one is the #3 WR at ISU.  Apart from the safety who transferred before this new NDSU head coach was hired anyway, these guys are role players at teams in the 15-30 range of the polls, with football revenue that probably ranks a somewhat lower than that.  This isn't Alabama or Michigan money.

The football players also transferred via the portal and play a sport with a scholarship limit of 85, so there is a good change they have a scholarship.  It also could mean that if these guys were offered that sum in NIL, that $500k in NIL is going out to around 80 guys at these programs.  This would be several levels of spending above above what we are hearing out of Iowa.

Five hundred for a single year for a wrestlers sounds crazy, but we're likely talking guys getting NIL in lieu of a scholarship and only a handful of guys at top programs vs possibly every guy on the team in addition to a scholarship at every team in Power 5 football.   Buchanan and Teemer are preseason #1s at their respective weights.   It might be inflated, but I don't think it is impossibly high for a few programs (Iowa/OSU/PSU).

[lu1979]

15 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I assume they have to pay taxes, but that is better than no taxes. No taxes means no income.

The net I was referring to was net of tuition.

I would think that in that case the tuition and related expenses would be deductible against whatever they made in NIL as they would be required expenses to make the NIL in the 1st place.

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, lu1979 said:

I would think that in that case the tuition and related expenses would be deductible against whatever they made in NIL as they would be required expenses to make the NIL in the 1st place.

Very Interesting idea.   I could see that.  I googled it.  This example seems to think it may not but it’s also not necessarily exhaustive:

Deductions and Expenses for NIL Income 

Tax deductions reduce taxable income, and students who receive NIL income may be able to claim them for certain expenses paid out of pocket. Eligible expenses can include:

• Travel expenses, such as hotels, airfare, or rental cars
• Meals
• Marketing expenses
• Mileage
• Equipment and supplies, such as a laptop or video equipment
• Website hosting
• Home office deduction

https://www.investopedia.com/nil-deals-tax-implications-8599929