John Smith retires

[jackwebster]

On 4/14/2024 at 2:09 PM, NM1965 said:

33 years is too long in this case. In 2023 John Smith gave an interview on FLO where he stated "I almost retired after my last title in 2007, I don't know what made me hang around". Paraphrased, of course. So John basically admitted that after 2007 he had no motivation with that remark. I know why he hung around though, the paycheck. I don't blame him for doing it, but I blame OSU for keeping a guy around 16 years too long despite the team continuing to decline, and OSU has a tradition of doing that. Pat Jones came in as HC in football, had 2 or 3 great seasons, then OSU keep him around for many more years despite the 2-10 records and such Pat was cranking out. Pah. Look at John's coaching staff. Chris Perry was a great wrestler but now he's so fat he should be entering hot dog eating contests, not coaching. Maybe he rolls with the HWT in practice. Plus the kids today barely know who John Smith is (or rather, was). He's an old black/white photo on the wall to them. Nobody wants to wrestle for a memory, guys want to wrestle for a guy who can make them into a champ. When was the last time OSU had an individual NCAA champion? Dieringer about a decade ago?  

It's high time John got out of coaching and gave somebody with a little motivation the chance to do something at OSU.  He's a nice guy, I wish him the best in his retirement and hope to see him as a commentator in the future working with his brother, but as an old Cowboy fan I'm glad to see him go. 

You're right: OSU would have been better off if he had retired a while ago. But I disagree with almost all of your justifications.

Re he hung around for the paycheck: Sure, and so does everyone else. But, $$$ huntin' doesnt hurt a coach's chance for success. On the contrary, it's why they do the best they can. They want to win to get a bigger paycheck, no? 

Re coaching staff: Yeah, Perry isn't at his fighting weight, and so he isn't the best training partner. But, this isn't a coaching staff problem. This is an RTC problem. Traditionally, ass't coaches did fill the role. Today, it seems that the best operation has the lieutenants doing admin and organizational stuff. 

Re name recognition: Those six world titles are ancient history. But other than Sanderson, who are you comparing him to? Tom Ryan? Zeke Jones? Dresser? Koll? I guess there are some younger guys coaching, but their names aren't Dake, Taylor, Askren, or Burroughs. 

Re champs: It's been a diaster. I'm with you here. 

Re he's nice guy: Is he? 

 

Edited April 15 by jackwebster

[fishbane]

On 4/14/2024 at 2:09 PM, NM1965 said:

 Plus the kids today barely know who John Smith is (or rather, was). He's an old black/white photo on the wall to them. Nobody wants to wrestle for a memory, guys want to wrestle for a guy who can make them into a champ. When was the last time OSU had an individual NCAA champion? Dieringer about a decade ago?  

AJ Ferrari was Smiths last individual national champion in 2021.  Before that it was Dean Heil in 2017.

Kids today still know John Smith.  He won the Olympics in the 1992 that was 32 years ago.  Dan Gable won the Olympics in 1972.  College and high school wrestlers still know who was in 2004.  And even if they have forgotten it doesn't appear to have negatively affect his ability to recruit.  OSU secured 12 top 25 recruits over the past 5 recruiting classes which is the second best behind only PSU (13) and a significant advantage over Ohio State (9), Iowa (8), Michigan (7), and Cornell (6).  

[fishbane]

Retirement Press conference - 

 

[Winners Circle]

On 4/14/2024 at 1:09 PM, NM1965 said:

33 years is too long in this case. In 2023 John Smith gave an interview on FLO where he stated "I almost retired after my last title in 2007, I don't know what made me hang around". Paraphrased, of course. So John basically admitted that after 2007 he had no motivation with that remark. I know why he hung around though, the paycheck. I don't blame him for doing it, but I blame OSU for keeping a guy around 16 years too long despite the team continuing to decline, and OSU has a tradition of doing that. Pat Jones came in as HC in football, had 2 or 3 great seasons, then OSU keep him around for many more years despite the 2-10 records and such Pat was cranking out. Pah. Look at John's coaching staff. Chris Perry was a great wrestler but now he's so fat he should be entering hot dog eating contests, not coaching. Maybe he rolls with the HWT in practice. Plus the kids today barely know who John Smith is (or rather, was). He's an old black/white photo on the wall to them. Nobody wants to wrestle for a memory, guys want to wrestle for a guy who can make them into a champ. When was the last time OSU had an individual NCAA champion? Dieringer about a decade ago?  

It's high time John got out of coaching and gave somebody with a little motivation the chance to do something at OSU.  He's a nice guy, I wish him the best in his retirement and hope to see him as a commentator in the future working with his brother, but as an old Cowboy fan I'm glad to see him go. 

With all due respect, you're a f*cking idiot for this take. You're delusional if you think high school kids today 'barely know' who John W. Smith. And I'm saying that with all due respect. 

[Pistol Pete]

Wooooo….. Bang ! Bang ! Bang

John Smith is Pistol Hero ! 
 

High School

Smith wrestled at Del City High Schoolin Del City, Oklahoma. While in high school Smith had a 105–5 record, and was a two-time Oklahoma state champion.

A As College

Smith competed collegiately at Oklahoma State University. While at Oklahoma State University, Smith's college career record was 154-7-2. At the NCAA Division I Wrestling Championships, Smith was a three-time national finalist and a two-time national champion. After losing in the 1985 finals to future US House representative Jim Jordan, he finished his college career with 90 consecutive victories.

Senior level

Beginning in his teenage years, Smith competed internationally in freestyle wrestling. Highlights of his career include four UWW World gold medals, and two Olympic gold medals. At the Senior level, his international freestyle wrestling record was 100–5. He is the only American wrestler to ever win six consecutive World and Olympic championships as a competitor. 
 

 

 

Coaching career

Smith became the head wrestling coach at Oklahoma State University in 1991. During his tenure, Oklahoma State University won five NCAA Division I national team titles, with titles coming in 1994, 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006. As of 2022, his overall dual meet record was 490-73-6. He had also coached 33 NCAA Division I individual national champions, and coached his wrestlers to 152 All-American honors. Smith has brought 21 team conference titles and 129 individual conference championships to Stillwater as a coach, as well. On April 11, 2024 he announced his retirement and departure from OSU. 
 

 

1992

•  Summer Olympics

1991

•  World Wrestling Championships
•  Pan American Games
•  Pan American Championships

1990

•  World Wrestling Championships
•  1990 Goodwill Games wrestling tournament
•  Grand Masters of Olympic Wrestling
• UWW Master of Technique award winner
• Amateur Athletic Union James E. Sullivan Award winner

1989

•  World Wrestling Championships

1988

•  Summer Olympics
•  NCAA Division I
•  Big Eight Conference

1987

•  World Wrestling Championships
•  Pan American Games
•  Pan American Championships
•  NCAA Division I
•  Big Eight Conference

1986

•  Goodwill Games

1985

•  NCAA Division I
•  Big Eight Conference

Other honors

• Smith was inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame as a Distinguished Member in 1997.
• He was inducted into the Oklahoma Sports Hall of Fame with the class of 1997.
• In 2020, Smith was inducted into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame.
• The high school Smith graduated from, Del City High School in Oklahoma, named its field house after him.
• Smith has a wrestling move named after him, the John Smith low single. 

Woooooo…. Bang ! Bang ! Bang ! 
 

Pistol Pete 

Dem Boyz 4-Life 

 

Edited April 16 by Pistol Pete

[fishbane]

Most wins at OSU as a wrestler.  Most wins at OSU as a coach.  More undefeated teams than Gable.  As many conference team titles than Gable.  Since Smith took over as head coach in 1991 his teams have won 5 team titles no other coach in that time period has won more except Sanderson.

Edited April 16 by fishbane

[1032004]

18 hours ago, fishbane said:

AJ Ferrari was Smiths last individual national champion in 2021.  Before that it was Dean Heil in 2017.

Kids today still know John Smith.  He won the Olympics in the 1992 that was 32 years ago.  Dan Gable won the Olympics in 1972.  College and high school wrestlers still know who was in 2004.  And even if they have forgotten it doesn't appear to have negatively affect his ability to recruit.  OSU secured 12 top 25 recruits over the past 5 recruiting classes which is the second best behind only PSU (13) and a significant advantage over Ohio State (9), Iowa (8), Michigan (7), and Cornell (6).  

That post had some exaggeration to it for sure, but it is true that as far as training with guys most kids would rather wrestle with the more recently relevant guys (other than Cael).  Ridge Lovett is on record as saying his dad wanted him to go to OSU because of John Smith, but he chose Nebraska at least in part because of Jordan Burroughs (although he of course left Nebraska…)

[11986]

20 hours ago, Pistol Pete said:

A As College

Smith competed collegiately at Oklahoma State University. While at Oklahoma State University, Smith's college career record was 154-7-2. At the NCAA Division I Wrestling Championships, Smith was a three-time national finalist and a two-time national champion. After losing in the 1985 finals to future US House representative Jim Jordan, he finished his college career with 90 consecutive victories.

 

 

Gil Sanchez would like a word

[Danny Deck]

On 4/13/2024 at 12:46 AM, NM1965 said:

He may be to outsiders but the people in Stoolwater love him. I have no doubt about Scott's wrestling chops but I wonder if he has the name recognition to pull down the big HS kids? He's from Pennsylvania and is sort of a HS legend there from my understanding, so I'm wondering if that'll help recruiting any? 

 

On 4/14/2024 at 1:09 PM, NM1965 said:

33 years is too long in this case. In 2023 John Smith gave an interview on FLO where he stated "I almost retired after my last title in 2007, I don't know what made me hang around". Paraphrased, of course. So John basically admitted that after 2007 he had no motivation with that remark. I know why he hung around though, the paycheck. I don't blame him for doing it, but I blame OSU for keeping a guy around 16 years too long despite the team continuing to decline, and OSU has a tradition of doing that. Pat Jones came in as HC in football, had 2 or 3 great seasons, then OSU keep him around for many more years despite the 2-10 records and such Pat was cranking out. Pah. Look at John's coaching staff. Chris Perry was a great wrestler but now he's so fat he should be entering hot dog eating contests, not coaching. Maybe he rolls with the HWT in practice. Plus the kids today barely know who John Smith is (or rather, was). He's an old black/white photo on the wall to them. Nobody wants to wrestle for a memory, guys want to wrestle for a guy who can make them into a champ. When was the last time OSU had an individual NCAA champion? Dieringer about a decade ago?  

It's high time John got out of coaching and gave somebody with a little motivation the chance to do something at OSU.  He's a nice guy, I wish him the best in his retirement and hope to see him as a commentator in the future working with his brother, but as an old Cowboy fan I'm glad to see him go. 

This is the first time I've seen "an old Cowboy fan" refer to "Stoolwater."

[ionel]

23 minutes ago, 11986 said:

Gil Sanchez would like a word

Actually Gil prob doesn't like to talk about it much even though he did get that first match of the season.

134 lst: John Smith jll - Oklahoma State (18-4) 

2nd: Gil Sanchez l2l - Nebraska

[NM1965]

48 minutes ago, Danny Deck said:

 

This is the first time I've seen "an old Cowboy fan" refer to "Stoolwater."

Visit sometime and you'll understand. 

[fishbane]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

That post had some exaggeration to it for sure, but it is true that as far as training with guys most kids would rather wrestle with the more recently relevant guys (other than Cael).  Ridge Lovett is on record as saying his dad wanted him to go to OSU because of John Smith, but he chose Nebraska at least in part because of Jordan Burroughs (although he of course left Nebraska…)

It is a thing, but no head coach really has that kind of advantage over Smith. In the ranks of D1 head coaches there is scarcely a coach that a 2024 HS graduate would have seen wrestle in competition other than in archival footage.  I would feel pretty confidant that if a coach's last competition was 2010 or earlier a 2024 HS grad (maybe 5 at the time) would not have been aware or be able to remember watching them compete live.  This eliminates the head coaches at nearly every top program; Michigan, ISU, Iowa, ASU, Virginia Tech, Ohio State, Nebraska, Missouri, NC State, SDSU, UNI, Lehigh, Stanford, WVU, Wisconsin, Rutgers, MN, Northwestern.... 

The exceptions are few and far between.  Cael Sanderson (PSU) came out of retirement in 2011 some recruits may have watched that.  Mike Grey graduated from Cornell in 2011 and some may have seen him wrestle at NCAAs that year .  He didn't really do much on the freestyle circuit after graduating and went into coach shortly after.  Keith Gavin made a world team in 2013 and competed through the 2016 trials.  Coleman Scott won bronze in 2012 and tried to make the team again in 2016.  I think Kolat unretired and wrestled at the 2012 trials.  Are there any other head coaches that competed post 2010?

I think if it wasn't something they saw live or were following as it happened then the coach with the bigger accomplishments either coaching or competing has the built in recruiting advantage.  Not many can rival John Smith in either department.  I don't think a top recruit in the state of OK has gone anywhere else since Jack Spates retired.  I was really surprised when Carter Young committed to Northwestern, but then he transferred without ever competing for them. 

[NM1965]

On 4/16/2024 at 8:46 AM, fishbane said:

AJ Ferrari was Smiths last individual national champion in 2021.  Before that it was Dean Heil in 2017.

Kids today still know John Smith.  He won the Olympics in the 1992 that was 32 years ago.  Dan Gable won the Olympics in 1972.  College and high school wrestlers still know who was in 2004.  And even if they have forgotten it doesn't appear to have negatively affect his ability to recruit.  OSU secured 12 top 25 recruits over the past 5 recruiting classes which is the second best behind only PSU (13) and a significant advantage over Ohio State (9), Iowa (8), Michigan (7), and Cornell (6).  

Thanks, Dean Heil. 2017 was the last non-Ferrari OSU champ. I'm almost 60 and forget shit all the time now. 

[fishbane]

5 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

Thanks, Dean Heil. 2017 was the last non-Ferrari OSU champ. I'm almost 60 and forget shit all the time now. 

Yeah 1 year after Dieringer who won his last title in 2016.

[NM1965]

On 4/15/2024 at 3:01 PM, jackwebster said:

You're right: OSU would have been better off if he had retired a while ago. But I disagree with almost all of your justifications.

Re he hung around for the paycheck: Sure, and so does everyone else. But, $$$ huntin' doesnt hurt a coach's chance for success. On the contrary, it's why they do the best they can. They want to win to get a bigger paycheck, no? 

Re coaching staff: Yeah, Perry isn't at his fighting weight, and so he isn't the best training partner. But, this isn't a coaching staff problem. This is an RTC problem. Traditionally, ass't coaches did fill the role. Today, it seems that the best operation has the lieutenants doing admin and organizational stuff. 

Re name recognition: Those six world titles are ancient history. But other than Sanderson, who are you comparing him to? Tom Ryan? Zeke Jones? Dresser? Koll? I guess there are some younger guys coaching, but their names aren't Dake, Taylor, Askren, or Burroughs. 

Re champs: It's been a diaster. I'm with you here. 

Re he's nice guy: Is he? 

 

I think you agreed with me on everything, just maybe not the extent, but you mentioned something I forgot, the RTC That's a big draw for all the really good wrestlers.  Maybe OSU should try to get an RTC, assuming they can get the financial backing. 

Name recognition wise there are a lot of guys more exciting than old John. Any of the current crop of US Senior wrestlers age 30 or so would probably make a fine coach, especially a technique guy like Taylor.  That said I strongly dislike Askren, and I don't think Burroughs can teach what makes him special on the mat. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JB wouldn't be a good coach, I'm just saying he can't teach his athleticism/explosiveness, that sort of thing is innate. 

As for John Smith, he treated me decent when we were both FR at OSU. I was nobody in that room, but he was a HS superstar. I'm sure he's been hardened over the years, like everyone gets with age. 

There are going to be a lot of other guys retiring in the next few years: the Brands boys, Dresser, Ryan, and many others. There will be a sea change in NCAA coaching in the next decade. 

[alex1fly]

Hasn't John been doing wrestling camps every year for forever? If so then tons of young wrestlers know who he is.

"Stoolwater". Lol. Stillwater is a flavor for sure but it's more similar than not to the countless other ag-based college towns in this country.

[alex1fly]

Just now, NM1965 said:

I think you agreed with me on everything, just maybe not the extent, but you mentioned something I forgot, the RTC That's a big draw for all the really good wrestlers.  Maybe OSU should try to get an RTC, assuming they can get the financial backing. 

https://www.cowboywrestlingclub.com/

In it's second year.

[NM1965]

6 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Yeah 1 year after Dieringer who won his last title in 2016.

He's kind of an easy one to forget. He always seemed to win 5-3 or so, barely eking out wins, until the NCAA changed the rules and pfft, that was it. I remember he had a brother who wrestled for Cleveland State (I think). 

[NM1965]

2 minutes ago, alex1fly said:

Hasn't John been doing wrestling camps every year for forever? If so then tons of young wrestlers know who he is.

"Stoolwater". Lol. Stillwater is a flavor for sure but it's more similar than not to the countless other ag-based college towns in this country.

If you've been in one ag college town, you've basically been to them all

[11986]

25 minutes ago, fishbane said:

The exceptions are few and far between.  Cael Sanderson (PSU) came out of retirement in 2011 some recruits may have watched that.  Mike Grey graduated from Cornell in 2011 and some may have seen him wrestle at NCAAs that year .  He didn't really do much on the freestyle circuit after graduating and went into coach shortly after.  Keith Gavin made a world team in 2013 and competed through the 2016 trials.  Coleman Scott won bronze in 2012 and tried to make the team again in 2016.  I think Kolat unretired and wrestled at the 2012 trials.  Are there any other head coaches that competed post 2010?

Ruschell?

[NM1965]

19 minutes ago, fishbane said:

It is a thing, but no head coach really has that kind of advantage over Smith. In the ranks of D1 head coaches there is scarcely a coach that a 2024 HS graduate would have seen wrestle in competition other than in archival footage.  I would feel pretty confidant that if a coach's last competition was 2010 or earlier a 2024 HS grad (maybe 5 at the time) would not have been aware or be able to remember watching them compete live.  This eliminates the head coaches at nearly every top program; Michigan, ISU, Iowa, ASU, Virginia Tech, Ohio State, Nebraska, Missouri, NC State, SDSU, UNI, Lehigh, Stanford, WVU, Wisconsin, Rutgers, MN, Northwestern.... 

The exceptions are few and far between.  Cael Sanderson (PSU) came out of retirement in 2011 some recruits may have watched that.  Mike Grey graduated from Cornell in 2011 and some may have seen him wrestle at NCAAs that year .  He didn't really do much on the freestyle circuit after graduating and went into coach shortly after.  Keith Gavin made a world team in 2013 and competed through the 2016 trials.  Coleman Scott won bronze in 2012 and tried to make the team again in 2016.  I think Kolat unretired and wrestled at the 2012 trials.  Are there any other head coaches that competed post 2010?

I think if it wasn't something they saw live or were following as it happened then the coach with the bigger accomplishments either coaching or competing has the built in recruiting advantage.  Not many can rival John Smith in either department.  I don't think a top recruit in the state of OK has gone anywhere else since Jack Spates retired.  I was really surprised when Carter Young committed to Northwestern, but then he transferred without ever competing for them. 

Mark Perry is an Okie and John Smith lost him, but that's because Perry didn't want to ride the bench behind Johnny Hendricks so I don't blame John for losing him. 

The main reason I want a new coach is that OSU's kids don't improve. Daton Fix never improved. Kaid Brock never improved, regressed, and finally quit wrestling altogether. Kaden Gfeller never improved after getting to OSU and I don't think even made the podium, he should've made AA at least a couple times.  Chance Marstellar actually regressed from his HS form while at OSU. Guys improving at OSU now are the exception, not the usual. I dislike Ben Askren, but if OSU made him a coach I'd probably be his biggest supporter if the wrestlers improved. 

[NM1965]

On 4/15/2024 at 8:32 AM, boconnell said:

If duals don't matter than why were you yapping about how he wouldn't have won 10 duals?  You can't bring something up and then whine about how it doesn't matter after you're wrong.  

That isn't what I said. What I said was "Are you sure it would only take him one more year? " when Ryou said Smith only needed 10 wins to reach 500 dual victories. 

[Gus]

2 hours ago, NM1965 said:

Mark Perry is an Okie and John Smith lost him, but that's because Perry didn't want to ride the bench behind Johnny Hendricks so I don't blame John for losing him. 

The main reason I want a new coach is that OSU's kids don't improve. Daton Fix never improved. Kaid Brock never improved, regressed, and finally quit wrestling altogether. Kaden Gfeller never improved after getting to OSU and I don't think even made the podium, he should've made AA at least a couple times.  Chance Marstellar actually regressed from his HS form while at OSU. Guys improving at OSU now are the exception, not the usual. I dislike Ben Askren, but if OSU made him a coach I'd probably be his biggest supporter if the wrestlers improved. 

I think that there are cases to be made for wrestlers stagnating at OSU but it is not universally true. Just looking at the team last year - Plott has gotten much better each year. Olejnik improved in his one year at OSU. Teague Travis improved greatly. Sprately and Jamison did not have the NCAA tournament that I am sure they wanted to have but both had great seasons and made strides in their development last year. A person could go through every team and cherry pick examples of guys not living up to the hype. The biggest problem for John was the Ferarri / Mastrogiovanni thing. 

[fishbane]

3 hours ago, 11986 said:

Ruschell?

Yeah is he the youngest D1 head coach?  I mostly stuck to the top 15 or so teams.

Mike Poeta (Illinois, Illinois 2009) wrestled at the 2012 Olympic Trials. Angel Escobedo (Indiana, Indiana 2010) wrestled at the 2012 Olympic Trials.  Chris Pendleton (Oregon State, OSU 2005) was the runner up in the challenge tournament in 2012.  Matt Valenti (Penn, Penn 2007) was also at the 2012 Olympic Trials losing to Scott in the semis.  I think all retired soon thereafter.

[Okie_Pat]

10 hours ago, NM1965 said:

The main reason I want a new coach is that OSU's kids don't improve. Daton Fix never improved. Kaid Brock never improved, regressed, and finally quit wrestling altogether. Kaden Gfeller never improved after getting to OSU and I don't think even made the podium, he should've made AA at least a couple times.  Chance Marstellar actually regressed from his HS form while at OSU. Guys improving at OSU now are the exception, not the usual. I dislike Ben Askren, but if OSU made him a coach I'd probably be his biggest supporter if the wrestlers improved. 

Kaid Brock had a laundry list of injuries and decided to hang ‘em up, Gfeller had serious off the mat issues but eventually straightened up, came back and cut 45 lbs in about 2 months to start. Marstellar got kicked off the team for being an idiot. There have been some program issues that John has brushed under the rug for a while but that has changed dramatically the last few years.
 

Edited April 18 by Okie_Pat