Coach Manning calling a spade a spade!

[VakAttack]

4 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Why would they need to minimize picc scoring? They finished 43.5 points ahead of 3rd place Oklahoma state , they had 5 champs and went into Stillwater a month prior and beat ok state 27-13 with 6 of those being the Suriano Inj.Def and by todays scoring Guilbon would’ve majored Heil. What was penn state minimizing scoring for? To help Ohio state finish in 2nd? 

Because Oklahoma State was a potential threat to a team title.  Just because the team score ended up lopsided, they don't know the team score beforehand. and the best teams, even when expected to win, are always looking for edges.  Look at the Patriots in the NFL.  Obviously New England crossed a line a couple of times, and I'm NOT saying Penn State has crossed a line; I don't think they've done anything against the rules.  From my perspective, it's a question of "right thing" and individual's responsibility to a struggling sport vs. responsibility solely to their team.

[Antitroll2828]

4 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I'm not relying on Manning, this has been a known and discussed issue since when it happened.  There's a reason it's literally a running joke in wrestling circles about "he's downstairs drilling right now."

I’m just saying  4 guys that have been out of school for a bit now , all immediately calling out Manning and claiming he’s lying . It’s not like McCutcheon, Nickal , hall and Carr were all together planning this , these guys are spread out all over the country all doing different things and they just came together to lie on twitter about a former teammates situation who they all seem cool with to this day ? Or is it more likely Manning was bitter about Wilson and maybe a bit tipsy and clearly has had an axe to grind for awhile . 
 

for the record I think Wilson should have received a wildcard bc he had head to head wins over other wild card guys , in wild card situations head to head win should he automatic, he got screwed but manning is still a clown 

[JimmyCinnabon]

55 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

To play devil's advocate, where does responsibility to the sport come in?  Because it's not like wrestling is a vibrant, thriving sport, and there is no overarching body that cares directly for the health of NCAA wrestling.  There are outside bodies that try to promote, like NWCA or USA Wrestling, but if our sport is slowly dying, do the coaches have some responsibility to maximize the product so that it's around for decades, or is their only responsibility to try to win each year?

Their responsibilities lie first with their wrestler and second to their program/university. There is no third here.

[jajensen09]

Just now, Antitroll2828 said:

I’m just saying  4 guys that have been out of school for a bit now , all immediately calling out Manning and claiming he’s lying . It’s not like McCutcheon, Nickal , hall and Carr were all together planning this , these guys are spread out all over the country all doing different things and they just came together to lie on twitter about a former teammates situation who they all seem cool with to this day ? Or is it more likely Manning was bitter about Wilson and maybe a bit tipsy and clearly has had an axe to grind for awhile . 
 

for the record I think Wilson should have received a wildcard bc he had head to head wins over other wild card guys , in wild card situations head to head win should he automatic, he got screwed but manning is still a clown 

Manning is tired of Cael doing whatever the hell he wants

[Antitroll2828]

Just now, VakAttack said:

Because Oklahoma State was a potential threat to a team title.  Just because the team score ended up lopsided, they don't know the team score beforehand. and the best teams, even when expected to win, are always looking for edges.  Look at the Patriots in the NFL.  Obviously New England crossed a line a couple of times, and I'm NOT saying Penn State has crossed a line; I don't think they've done anything against the rules.  From my perspective, it's a question of "right thing" and individual's responsibility to a struggling sport vs. responsibility solely to their team.

The only thing that made Oklahoma state a team title threat that season was the fact that Flo who was at its peak at that time hyped them as so all season but it wasn’t close , in no universe do they win that season , a depleted penn state lineup crushed them in a dual and the ncaa tournament so they obviously weren’t contenders. Penn state crushed them with a lineup of no 125, 133 1-12 George Carpenter ,and a 15 lose Jimmy Guilibon 

[VakAttack]

Just now, Antitroll2828 said:

I’m just saying  4 guys that have been out of school for a bit now , all immediately calling out Manning and claiming he’s lying . It’s not like McCutcheon, Nickal , hall and Carr were all together planning this , these guys are spread out all over the country all doing different things and they just came together to lie on twitter about a former teammates situation who they all seem cool with to this day ? Or is it more likely Manning was bitter about Wilson and maybe a bit tipsy and clearly has had an axe to grind for awhile . 
 

for the record I think Wilson should have received a wildcard bc he had head to head wins over other wild card guys , in wild card situations head to head win should he automatic, he got screwed but manning is still a clown 

Wilson is secondary to this question to me.  I don't care.  As I believe @nhs67 said, don't go 16-12 and place 9th at B1Gs.

As to the former Penn State wrestlers, I would say it's more a combination of "defending their program" and "playing with language."  Your portraying it as if anyone saying opposite them is claiming a gran conspiracy by them.  It's relatively straightforward and doesn't involve any sort of planning.

Everybody knew, at the time, that there was no way Suriano was going to be able to wrestle.  It was discussed on forums, in media, on socials, etc.  he broke his ankle.  Cael and Penn State waited to the last second to pull him because it kept Picc on in Gilman's quarter because after a certain point, they wouldn't reseed.  It was gamesmanship, and it worked.  It also made the actual tournament a little more lame.

[Wrestleknownothing]

52 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

To play devil's advocate, where does responsibility to the sport come in?  Because it's not like wrestling is a vibrant, thriving sport, and there is no overarching body that cares directly for the health of NCAA wrestling.  There are outside bodies that try to promote, like NWCA or USA Wrestling, but if our sport is slowly dying, do the coaches have some responsibility to maximize the product so that it's around for decades, or is their only responsibility to try to win each year?

Yes, it is the coach's responsibility to win each year. Where the good of the sport comes in is the rule set. If the coach wins by breaking the rules, that is bad for the sport. As a result there are remedies for coaches who break the rules. And the remedies are designed, or should be designed, to make non-compliance more penal than compliance.

If the argument is that the rules are bad because there was an outcome that the rule makers did not anticipate, then there is a remedy for that as well. Change the rules. As a matter of fact, we have seen massive rule changes in the past year alone, from how matches are scored to what it takes to qualify for the tournament, and what the seeding criteria are.

And in this very instance, both the new qualification rule and the new seeding criteria came into play.

Meanwhile, from a "pure casual fan, good of the sport" perspective, it is much better to have a three time champion who is going for four and did not receive any preferential treatment, in the the NCAA tournament, than to have a wrestler possibly make the tournament on a technicality after a season of results that do not justify his inclusion.

 

[VakAttack]

6 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

Their responsibilities lie first with their wrestler and second to their program/university. There is no third here.

So what happens when the sport continues to erode?

[Wrestleknownothing]

30 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

This is just made up, no one is saying any of this ^^^^.  

"Hey our guys is going to sit this one out and rest up for NCAAs so lets not put the 8/9 winner in the semis or give the 10 seed a birth to NCAAs without winning a match"  Has nothing to do with revealing injuries or bailing out of the seed (whatever that means).

Starocci earned the #1 seed and deserved it, but if he is not going to use it then I fail to see why it would matter to him or any PSU fan where he is seeded in a bracket since he isn't going to wrestle in. 

Manning is saying exactly that. He gave an example of how he thinks Cael Sanderson should have handled Carter Starocci's situation. He is very clear on the subject.

[VakAttack]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Yes, it is the coach's responsibility to win each year. Where the good of the sport comes in is the rule set. If the coach wins by breaking the rules, that is bad for the sport. As a result there are remedies for coaches who break the rules. And the remedies are designed, or should be designed, to make non-compliance more penal than compliance.

If the argument is that the rules are bad because there was an outcome that the rule makers did not anticipate, then there is a remedy for that as well. Change the rules. As a matter of fact, we have seen massive rule changes in the past year alone, from how matches are scored to what it takes to qualify for the tournament, and what the seeding criteria are.

And in this very instance, both the new qualification rule and the new seeding criteria came into play.

Meanwhile, from a "pure casual fan, good of the sport" perspective, it is much better to have a three time champion who is going for four and did not receive any preferential treatment, in the the NCAA tournament, than to have a wrestler possibly make the tournament on a technicality after a season of results that do not justify his inclusion.

 

I feel like we got crosswise here, where I'm mostly talking about the previous Suriano situation whereas you're debating the current Starocci situation, so I apologize for being unclear.  I don't think there's anything particularly untoward about the Starocci situation at present, pending whatever happens on Thursday; I fully expect Starocci will wrestle, but I believe he will be a diminished version (though I hope I'm wrong.)

[MLB9]

9 minutes ago, jajensen09 said:

Manning is tired of Cael doing whatever the hell he wants

Winning?

[JimmyCinnabon]

3 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

So what happens when the sport continues to erode?

I don't have an answer for you. Is it eroding? I think it's only been getting more popular over the last decade. And if it is eroding, well I just don't have an answer for you there. Cael Sanderson certainly is not single handily eroding college wrestling, though. 

[jajensen09]

Just now, JimmyCinnabon said:

I don't have an answer for you. Is it eroding? I think it's only been getting more popular over the last decade. And if it is eroding, well I just don't have an answer for you there. Cael Sanderson certainly is not single handily eroding college wrestling, though. 

He's a big reason for it. Wrestling "the best" wrestlers in the country 15 times a year is ridiculous.  How will the average fan ever take interest in that. 

[JimmyCinnabon]

5 minutes ago, jajensen09 said:

He's a big reason for it. Wrestling "the best" wrestlers in the country 15 times a year is ridiculous.  How will the average fan ever take interest in that. 

It's amazing, Cael Sanderson is the only coach I hear people complain about eroding the popularity of college wrestling. He wins too much. He gets too many of the best guys. His guys don't wrestle enough matches. Penn State guys have too much fun. And on and on. Your complaint here really just comes off as whiny and bitter. 

This is par for the course when a program is too dominant. Iowa went through it at one point as well.

Edited March 19 by JimmyCinnabon

[OMW]

7 minutes ago, jajensen09 said:

Manning is tired of Cael doing whatever the hell he wants

Doing whatever he wants? If a rule or by-law was broken by Coach Sanderson, Coach Manning would have a point.  None have been. 

There's probably a lot of frustration on his (Manning's) part, as Wilson did have a have a good case for an at large compared to others - similar to some universities and their situations of not receiving bids to the NCAA basketball tournament. Deserving parties are commonly overlooked.

It happens.

Side note, it's funny to see how much Cael Sanderson lives in other coaches heads. Manning's projection and whining is just another example.

[NM1965]

1 minute ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

It's amazing, Cael Sanderson is the only coach I hear people complain about eroding the popularity of college wrestling. He wins too much. He gets too many of the best guys. His guys don't wrestle enough matches. Penn State guys have too much fun. And on and on. Your complaint here really just comes off as whiny and bitter. 

This is par for the course when a program is too dominant. Iowa went through it at one point as well.

I heard all the same complaints back in the 80s when Iowa was winning every year. PSU won't rule forever.

[1032004]

Man this article makes Manning sound like even more of a baby than he already did.  In the tweets, it seemed his main complaint was about B10’s, where PSU probably did know Suriano wasn’t wrestling, and I’m sure Starocci as well.  But after getting called out by multiple people with first hand knowledge of the situation that it wasn’t always known that Suriano wasn’t going to wrestle at NCAA’s, Manning doubles down.  “What was he practicing, checkers?” is super cringe… 

[jajensen09]

4 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Man this article makes Manning sound like even more of a baby than he already did.  In the tweets, it seemed his main complaint was about B10’s, where PSU probably did know Suriano wasn’t wrestling, and I’m sure Starocci as well.  But after getting called out by multiple people with first hand knowledge of the situation that it wasn’t always known that Suriano wasn’t going to wrestle at NCAA’s, Manning doubles down.  “What was he practicing, checkers?” is super cringe… 

Good on Manning! That is great!

[JimmyCinnabon]

13 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

I heard all the same complaints back in the 80s when Iowa was winning every year. PSU won't rule forever.

No, PSU won't rule forever and I pointed out that Iowa went through this when they were dominating as well. When PSU is done dominating and if another coach and program comes along and dominates we will heard about how they are destroying the sport, too. 

[Eagle26]

Guys, his point is about how a known injury blows up the bracket at conferences and he believes the right thing to do would be let the coaches know and seed Starocci last. It’s not that he thinks Wilson deserved a wild card, but he probably thinks he deserves to be at nationals more than Baumann, the Purdue freshman with an 12-14 record does. Baumann got a forfeit from Starocci to get to the top 8 which qualified him for NCAAs. I don’t see how any can argue that is indicative of getting the best guys to NCAAs (as should be our goal). It was simply luck of the draw to hit a bye on the backside. If Carter is not seeded that high, someone will still get a bye, but would have to win their next match to get into the top 8. Thus allowing the wrestlers to “earn it” (and there’s a very good chance Wilson does if this is the case)

[Eagle26]

3 hours ago, VakAttack said:

He's not wrong. PSU gamed the Suriano situation to try to minimize Picc's tournament scoring.  And it worked! It comes down to "what's the important thing?"  PSU coaches, is it solely their job to win, or do they bear some responsibility to "do right by the sport"?  I see both side of that argument.

 

ETA: i don't think the Starocci example is the same situation as Suriano.

Exactly! Totally agree I can see both sides… Cael obviously believes he needs to look out for his guys above all else. That’s why we had the whole national duals debacle as well. I get it, but as a fan I don’t like it. I really wish our top coaches put the sport first. JRob was a great example of this

[PortaJohn]

4 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Guys, his point is about how a known injury blows up the bracket at conferences and he believes the right thing to do would be let the coaches know and seed Starocci last. It’s not that he thinks Wilson deserved a wild card, but he probably thinks he deserves to be at nationals more than Baumann, the Purdue freshman with an 12-14 record does. Baumann got a forfeit from Starocci to get to the top 8 which qualified him for NCAAs. I don’t see how any can argue that is indicative of getting the best guys to NCAAs (as should be our goal). It was simply luck of the draw to hit a bye on the backside. If Carter is not seeded that high, someone will still get a bye, but would have to win their next match to get into the top 8. Thus allowing the wrestlers to “earn it” (and there’s a very good chance Wilson does if this is the case)

Yeah but this is a message board so its far more important to argue a) is Manning a whiny bitch b) how evil is Cael Sanderson

[PortaJohn]

1 minute ago, Eagle26 said:

Cael obviously believes he needs to look out for his guys above all else. That’s why we had the whole national duals debacle as well.

Again.  Cael is not solely responsible for the national duals debacle.  He's one of quite a few evil coaches who participated in its demise 

[NM1965]

16 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Guys, his point is about how a known injury blows up the bracket at conferences and he believes the right thing to do would be let the coaches know and seed Starocci last. It’s not that he thinks Wilson deserved a wild card, but he probably thinks he deserves to be at nationals more than Baumann, the Purdue freshman with an 12-14 record does. Baumann got a forfeit from Starocci to get to the top 8 which qualified him for NCAAs. I don’t see how any can argue that is indicative of getting the best guys to NCAAs (as should be our goal). It was simply luck of the draw to hit a bye on the backside. If Carter is not seeded that high, someone will still get a bye, but would have to win their next match to get into the top 8. Thus allowing the wrestlers to “earn it” (and there’s a very good chance Wilson does if this is the case)

Manning's point is weak sauce though. It doesn't matter than Baumann qualified and Wilson didn't, each would probably lose in R24 anyway or R16 at best. Manning is bitching because he'll miss the 2 or 3 points Wilson might've scored for him at NCAAs, and that's assuming he won a couple matches.  He has a point about Baumann getting an easier road because Starocci was seeded #1 and sat out, but PSU isn't breaking any rules and he knows it. Plus should a guy who couldn't even finish higher than 9th in his own conference even get a bid to the NCAAs anyway?  I mean, that's piss poor, I don't care how good the conference is, and yeah, I know there are 9th placers in the Big 10 that could beat conference champs in some conferences, but still, 9th place sucks balls. 

Edited March 19 by NM1965

[1032004]

So basically Manning’s solution is more honor?  I take it he’s never thrown a lung brick?