Should Olympic Reps be Decided before Pan Am OG Qualifier?

[juniorvarsity]

USAW did a great job this year adding the ability for previous medalists to challenge for the spot to go to Pan Ams.

Timing for team trials has been the same for a while, but maybe after 2 Olympics in a row where we have to compete at the Last Chance Qualifier(2 this year, 1 in 2021), maybe we should change up the timing of our process.

It would be a big disadvantage to the college guys if the OTT occurred during the NCAA season, but that is what Olympic redshirts are for. 

Sure, maybe the OG continental's should occur later in the year, but they don't. And sure, maybe we don't want to decide our rep 7 months before Olympics, but Pan Ams is 5 months before the Olympics.

Should we consider moving OTT to a month prior to Pan Am OG qualifier during Olympic years?

I am undecided, but I think it should be discussed 

[CHROMEBIRD]

No.

[bnwtwg]

Call me when Team USA isn't consistently finishing top 3 and then I'll be open to revisiting the qualification process.

This may come as a shock, but only one person can win a wrestling match and sometimes that doesn't work in the favor of the person you wanted it to. Or maybe it does, like when I was rooting for Austin Gomez to beat Nick Lee.

[cowcards]

Pan-Ams is the weird federation. The rest do theirs in April except Africa/Oceania end of March. Pan-Am OG should be moved to fit the calendar better like the rest of the world.

[1032004]

1 hour ago, cowcards said:

Pan-Ams is the weird federation. The rest do theirs in April except Africa/Oceania end of March. Pan-Am OG should be moved to fit the calendar better like the rest of the world.

When in April?  Are they before US OTT’s?

[cowcards]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

When in April?  Are they before US OTT’s?

March 2024

22-24

African & Oceania OG Qualifier

 

 

April 2024

 

05-07

European OG Qualifier

19-21

Asian OG Qualifier

[Hammerlock3]

I don't think so, those loses, which have me spitting mad, could have been taken by anyone...

[juniorvarsity]

4 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Call me when Team USA isn't consistently finishing top 3 and then I'll be open to revisiting the qualification process.

This may come as a shock, but only one person can win a wrestling match and sometimes that doesn't work in the favor of the person you wanted it to. Or maybe it does, like when I was rooting for Austin Gomez to beat Nick Lee.

I'm not calling to change anything about the process except to reconsider the timeline. What do you care about the process if you're rooting against team USA?

Call me when Team USA has to go to Last Chance Qualifier for two Olympic years in a row. Oh wait.

[juniorvarsity]

4 hours ago, cowcards said:

Pan-Ams is the weird federation. The rest do theirs in April except Africa/Oceania end of March. Pan-Am OG should be moved to fit the calendar better like the rest of the world.

This. If it moved to April 12, then we could just move the OTT to late March and have our Olympic Team member qualify the weight for the Olympics instead of the previous year world team member or previous medalists who challenges for a wrestle off. 

I just don't like that the Olympic Team member only earns the right to go to Last Chance Qualifier

[Truzzcat]

my only qualm with the qualification process is guys like Vito and dalton not really having an opportunity to challenge for the spot because it is during the collegiate season. Gillman could have and I wish he did but I know the cut is hard on him. In nicks case I think he was our best rep you could argue Alirez and I personally think he's gonna be our rep to try and qualify at last chance but given the last 12 months nick was the right guy so I can't fault that and he beat Yianni albeit the concussion muddied the waters a tad. I can see an argument that Yianni has more international pedigree so maybe you want him at an event like this but at the end of the day I think hindsight is 20/20. It could be foolish of me to say like even though he did not meet the criteria Spencer should have been allowed to try and compete to qualify the spot because well hes Spencer but I know you can't make exceptions.

[cowcards]

27 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

my only qualm with the qualification process is guys like Vito and dalton not really having an opportunity to challenge for the spot because it is during the collegiate season. Gillman could have and I wish he did but I know the cut is hard on him. In nicks case I think he was our best rep you could argue Alirez and I personally think he's gonna be our rep to try and qualify at last chance but given the last 12 months nick was the right guy so I can't fault that and he beat Yianni albeit the concussion muddied the waters a tad. I can see an argument that Yianni has more international pedigree so maybe you want him at an event like this but at the end of the day I think hindsight is 20/20. It could be foolish of me to say like even though he did not meet the criteria Spencer should have been allowed to try and compete to qualify the spot because well hes Spencer but I know you can't make exceptions.

Kind of hard to say they didn't have an opportunity to do it when Cohlton Schultz is doing it and Snyder has done it. They also both had the ability to take an Olympic redshirt but chose not to. Though chose to make the college season their focus, and that is fine, but they had all the opportunity they needed. 

[Truzzcat]

17 minutes ago, cowcards said:

Kind of hard to say they didn't have an opportunity to do it when Cohlton Schultz is doing it and Snyder has done it. They also both had the ability to take an Olympic redshirt but chose not to. Though chose to make the college season their focus, and that is fine, but they had all the opportunity they needed. 

thats true I think both were put in an odd spot given how long they have been in school but that was also their choice so can't really knock the process for that.

[bnwtwg]

6 hours ago, cowcards said:

Pan-Ams is the weird federation. The rest do theirs in April except Africa/Oceania end of March. Pan-Am OG should be moved to fit the calendar better like the rest of the world.

It makes sense from a fiscal perspective if one takes off their (much richer) American hat. Countries are required to compete in the games in order to participate at the Olympic qualifier. Why double up on planes, hotels, and other travel logistics for a February tourney and a May tourney when you can visit a single city for one week and knock out both tournaments.

[cowcards]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

It makes sense from a fiscal perspective if one takes off their (much richer) American hat. Countries are required to compete in the games in order to participate at the Olympic qualifier. Why double up on planes, hotels, and other travel logistics for a February tourney and a May tourney when you can visit a single city for one week and knock out both tournaments.

Oh for sure. I get why they do it that way. I'd bet a lot of the federations only pay a portion of the expenses to start with.

It's a dumb requirement to have to go to the championships in order to go to the OG. That's a whole different decision though.

I don't think that is really the obstacle though as the Pan-Am Championships in 2023 were way better attended than either the championships this year or the OG. That's despite also having the Pan-Am games later in the year. Now, the championships were a qualifier for the games, but it shows they could do it if they wanted to.

[bnwtwg]

I genuinely believe with the way the schedule goes combined with the USAW tournament setup rather than selection by committee that this is the best approach. The rep has to peak for OTT and Olympics no matter what.

The tricky part is this worst-case scenario. The rep has to peak for at least Pan Ams. THEN we hit the muck. It's great in theory and I support sending the current rep under definition of 1 season = WTT to OTT but USAW created "The Gilman Rule" specifically because of 57 not medaling last year. Of course, Gilman lost TWICE and if everyone is so butthurt about Richards losing then they should *really* be worried about the guy who proved throughout the calendar year that he wasn't the best rep.

So now you have to peak for a 3 match series AND og last chance. It's a lot. But would you rather hit a series of peaks from March through May or peak b2b2b all in a row? Neither is a good solution honestly. But given our selection system of keep what you kill then this seems to be the least bad option.

[Spladle08]

In the most respectful way. 
No changes need to be made, any of the top 5 guys believe they are going to make the team at both weights 57kg and 65kg. 
And believe they have a shot at an Olympic medal. 
So questioning their motivation is ridiculous. 
They would also be favored in any match,  against anyone from Pan-Am countries. 
Our Continental qualifier is truly a cakewalk of non-medal contenders at the Olympic games. 

It's easy to hindsight that "Anyone of our top guys except Retherford would've beaten Destribats"... if he and Retherford wrestled again right now would you bet me 1000 even money you get Destribats I get Retherford. 
Same for Gomez/Lee... 
I would say same for Richards vs Cruz, but RIchards always makes me uneasy, I couldn't do that one. 

We get unlucky sometimes, no matter how you slice it, we just didn't perform it's unpredictable even though it seems predictable AF. 

[bnwtwg]

33 minutes ago, Spladle08 said:

We get unlucky sometimes, no matter how you slice it, we just didn't perform it's unpredictable even though it seems predictable AF. 

It's why we wrestle the matches. And these tough results are among the most valuable lessons our great sport teaches us.

[wrestle87]

Yes, 100%.  The US is in a situation where, as the international “transfer market” heats up, non-qualified reps aren’t getting ill-prepared inexperienced national reps from countries that frankly don’t care about wrestling.

They are getting US born and bred wrestlers who are NCAA champions, or at that level, with decades of top level experience.

Retherford losing to Destribats, that was just odd.  I have never seen someone catch a headlock from defending an ankle lace like that before, probably never will again.

But Lee and Richards lost to guys who could potentially beat them 3-5 times out of 10.  This is a new era for competing for Pan Am spots, and if we want to continue prioritizing olympic success, this is the next hill to climb.

”We’ll be fine” is the approach that USA wrestling took in the 2000’s, and we were definitely not fine. We sucked.  I have no desire to go back to that era.  We are now 80% of the way to missing 2 out of 6 weight classes at the olympics.  That’s a step in the very wrong direction.  We are also three retirements away from being back below 10th in the world praying for bronze medals again.  That should be setting off alarm bells, bc when Dake, Taylor, and Snyder retire, they will be taking the lions share of USAW’s collective knowledge, investment, and experience with them.  Oh btw, all those guys are all also coming out if the same house.  So it’s not like the entire country is on fire with a glowing hotbed of gold medalists 4 rows deep champing at the bit behind them. There is now a major pressure release valve in the international transfer market, and guys will continue availing themselves of those options.

Pan-Ams is not a tournament that USA wrestlers can take for granted anymore.  

Edited March 4 by wrestle87

[juniorvarsity]

On 3/3/2024 at 7:33 PM, wrestle87 said:

Pan-Ams is not a tournament that USA wrestlers can take for granted anymore.  

That is why I think the schedule to qualify for the team could be adjusted or something can change. Why let wrestlers from previous year success be the ones our trials winners have to rely on to qualify the weight for Olympics? The Olympic Team Trials winner only earns the right to wrestle at Last Chance Qualifier.

Maybe we add an incentivize at Senior Nationals and have the champ be the Pan Am rep?

 

[mspart]

Yes, that might be a good thing to do.   That woudl bring out the OTT qualifiers that  might otherwise not bother with the US Nationals.  

mspart

[1032004]

2 hours ago, juniorvarsity said:

That is why I think the schedule to qualify for the team could be adjusted or something can change. Why let wrestlers from previous year success be the ones our trials winners have to rely on to qualify the weight for Olympics? The Olympic Team Trials winner only earns the right to wrestle at Last Chance Qualifier.

Maybe we add an incentivize at Senior Nationals and have the champ be the Pan Am rep?

 

I think it was also suggested that the Senior Nationals champ be at least given the ability to challenge for the Pan Am spot, which would have given Spencer and Alirez a shot

[mspart]

I think the fact that the Pan Ams are not a slam dunk anymore should require something more.   I like the idea of the US National Champion for the weights involved will be the Pan AM OG qualifier representative.   If someone has aspirations to be at the Olympic Games, they should aspire to be the rep that gets that weight qualified.    I really like this idea a lot. 

mspart

[bnwtwg]

7 hours ago, juniorvarsity said:

That is why I think the schedule to qualify for the team could be adjusted or something can change. Why let wrestlers from previous year success be the ones our trials winners have to rely on to qualify the weight for Olympics? The Olympic Team Trials winner only earns the right to wrestle at Last Chance Qualifier.

Maybe we add an incentivize at Senior Nationals and have the champ be the Pan Am rep?

 

Why let them? Because they earned that right.

The senior rep should not have to constantly take on challenge matches like they are trying to hold down the varsity spot in high school. They have earned the right and we should give them the respect their accolades demand.

[wrestle87]

18 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Why let them? Because they earned that right.

The senior rep should not have to constantly take on challenge matches like they are trying to hold down the varsity spot in high school. They have earned the right and we should give them the respect their accolades demand.

This right here.

The american system is certainly entertaining domestically, but my goodness does it create a lot of churn, friction, and wear and tear for athletes.

It would be awesome if we could have something like the russian system, but we’re just not that deep.

Russian nationals is so successful bc, frankly it’s way way harder than worlds or the olympics.  

Edited March 7 by wrestle87

[mspart]

Zane lost in the first round.   He lost to somebody who lost to somebody who lost to somebody that lost to Micic.  

Lee made it to the quarter finals.   He lost to a guy who lost to a finalist.  

Neither did stellar.   And neither did what was expected at Pan Am Qualifier.   Would it have been wrong to make the US National Champ the guy?   I agree a number of challenge matches is not necessarily good.   But we have had a bad experience in 2021 Olys and now 2024 Olys preps.   It points to a change in our system is needed.   With being the rep on the line for the US National Champion, we would get a much more participated in US National tourney.   I would think everyone would want to be there, at least in the weights that were not qualified.  

We should never go to Olys not fully qualified for MFS.   Period.   But we did in 2021 and are in danger of worse this year.  

mspart