The Ankle Grab...

[Nittany]

...that results in a stalemate, nay, is executed to result in a stalemate, is just stalling.

[flyingcement]

same as when someone is starting to lose ground in a scramble and intentionally causes a potentially dangerous by twisting the other guys knee until the ref gives them a restart

[flyingcement]

and add to the list - guys putting their foot on the wood floor to get a restart so they're not taken down.  

[Gus]

4 hours ago, flyingcement said:

and add to the list - guys putting their foot on the wood floor to get a restart so they're not taken down.  

Honest question: would it be better if there were no stalemates whatsoever?

[flyingcement]

Just now, Gus said:

Honest question: would it be better if there were no stalemates whatsoever?

It's a good question.  I can think of a couple examples which might qualify.  double leg takedown to the other guys butt, but his legs are beneath the guy with the takedown, and he has a chest wrap in such a way, that neither is likely to be able to move.  but I think reducing the types of stalemates would be great

[flyingcement]

also sometimes in a scramble, a guy will notice he lost the upper hand, and cling onto the leg for dear life, hoping to be bailed out.  some grey area for these calls

[wrestle87]

1 hour ago, flyingcement said:

It's a good question.  I can think of a couple examples which might qualify.  double leg takedown to the other guys butt, but his legs are beneath the guy with the takedown, and he has a chest wrap in such a way, that neither is likely to be able to move.  but I think reducing the types of stalemates would be great

1 hour ago, flyingcement said:

also sometimes in a scramble, a guy will notice he lost the upper hand, and cling onto the leg for dear life, hoping to be bailed out.  some grey area for these calls

I agree 100% with both of these, but these also occur because both wrestlers wind up in positions they aren’t willing to sacrifice because of the risk of doing so. I think it would be sick, because it just forces wrestling.   

I think 80% of stalemates are save time stalemates instead of real stalemates. 

What if, for example, they changed stalemates to a double stall call? Just spitballing =D

[Jim L]

I see stalemates called when both wrestlers are on their feet, they are tied up and nothing is going on. This seems like a ideal situation for a double stall.

Also question how is it a stalemate when the top wrestler throws in legs and is not able to do much besides hold his opponent down. 

I do see legitimate stalemates where both wrestlers end up in positions where there is no obvious advantage and neither can improve, so I don't think it needs to be eliminated.

I hate to be that guy, but Freestyle rules/refs seems to be get to get this right.  Obviously, bringing them back on their feet when nothing is happening on the mat makes this easier. 

 

 

[nhs67]

Hear me out on this one, gents.

The most popular sport on the planet, football (not US Soccer... proper football) has what they call 'stoppage' time.

Towards the end of the match they calculate how much time has been wasted in the game and add it up.  It is typically 5-10 minutes or so.  Sometimes more, sometimes less.

What if we added stoppage time for scrambles and just continued to let them go, unless someone was put in a potentially dangerous situation... which they could (should) penalize if done on purpose with a C1.

What if with 15-30 seconds to go in the match a stoppage time is utilized and added to the third period, with a cap of one (1) minute maximum and always in increments of five (5) seconds at a time?

Since we are veering further from Freestyle anyways (which would be my preferred style), then why not try something of the sort?  With more and more scrambling happening and less wrestling happening as a result, I say why not.

[Gus]

9 hours ago, flyingcement said:

also sometimes in a scramble, a guy will notice he lost the upper hand, and cling onto the leg for dear life, hoping to be bailed out.  some grey area for these calls

Yeah I see a lot of the stalemate positions being called as positions where one wrestler is in a clear advantage position and the other wrestler is just holding on to force a stalemate and get a fresh start. I think we could do away with 90% of stalemate calls in matches.

[RandolphTJones]

15 hours ago, flyingcement said:

same as when someone is starting to lose ground in a scramble and intentionally causes a potentially dangerous by twisting the other guys knee until the ref gives them a restart

THIS AINT THE MMA

[Fletcher]

I see high school refs call stalemate when the top guy has legs in for an extended period. Is that the right call? I think of it as a form of riding, like a spiral ride or controlling the wrist - which would never be called a stalemate.

[TexRef]

26 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

I see high school refs call stalemate when the top guy has legs in for an extended period. Is that the right call? I think of it as a form of riding, like a spiral ride or controlling the wrist - which would never be called a stalemate.

Keep in mind that there is not a riding time point in HS, so they should be looking to improve. 

I have called stalemate when the top guy has a leg in and there was not a clear option for either of them to improve. The next time the top guy created that same situation, I called him for stalling. 

They should be smart enough by then, to know to move on to something else. 

Oh and I have never called double stalling. That just seems like a bs call, even with heavyweights. It is as bad as hearing a coach yell "FREE MOVE!" 

[forkemaz]

11 hours ago, Gus said:

Honest question: would it be better if there were no stalemates whatsoever?

For pure wrestling yes. But it would require too many changes as the periods are short. Also the crying from Christian Pyle would be unbearable.

[Scouts Honor]

now compare it to freestyle.

the pushout.

the guy with the leg up can't finish. b/c the other guy has to much defense.

so instead of calling this a stalemate or no points. we let the guy walk him out of bounds for a point.

I say it's stalling. he has my ankle, or perhaps whole leg and isn't working to finish. he just pushes me out now b/c we gave him a free point.  or maybe i just dive down to the mat so im grounded... now im stalling to avoid the pushout.

 

so what you guys are saying is any time someone grasps in desperation we should just give a point to the other guy.

wrestling is about control. if i have controlled part of you such that you can't score.. so be it.

that's a stalemate.

[nhs67]

1 minute ago, Scouts Honor said:

now compare it to freestyle.

the pushout.

the guy with the leg up can't finish. b/c the other guy has to much defense.

so instead of calling this a stalemate or no points. we let the guy walk him out of bounds for a point.

I say it's stalling. he has my ankle, or perhaps whole leg and isn't working to finish. he just pushes me out now b/c we gave him a free point.  or maybe i just dive down to the mat so im grounded... now im stalling to avoid the pushout.

 

so what you guys are saying is any time someone grasps in desperation we should just give a point to the other guy.

wrestling is about control. if i have controlled part of you such that you can't score.. so be it.

that's a stalemate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Scouts Honor]

i will take that. straw man

however

is it wrong to say that you are just giving someone points for doing something you dont personally like? 

[Nittany]

I just don't think this is that hard.  Wrestler A shoots on wrestler B from neutral, for example, and wrestler B's counter to avoid being taken down is to dive for wrestler A's legs.  Once one or both ankles are secured, he waits for the stalemate call since he cannot improve.  Call it what it is...stalling.  Now, if wrestler B can improve and score, I have no problem with the technique as a precursor to securing a takedown of his own.

[gromit]

14 hours ago, Nittany said:

I just don't think this is that hard.  Wrestler A shoots on wrestler B from neutral, for example, and wrestler B's counter to avoid being taken down is to dive for wrestler A's legs.  Once one or both ankles are secured, he waits for the stalemate call since he cannot improve.  Call it what it is...stalling.  Now, if wrestler B can improve and score, I have no problem with the technique as a precursor to securing a takedown of his own.

I agree with this...and have been saying the same thing to anyone who'll listen since the "funk roll" TD defense technique started gaining popularity back in the mid-late 90s Fresno State/Gerry & Stephen Abas era.  IMO, enforcing stalling in this situation would also have the added benefit of reducing the multiple knee injuries that this technique can cause.  Seems like a no-brainer from a safety standpoint.

Edited January 18 by gromit

[Scouts Honor]

14 hours ago, Nittany said:

I just don't think this is that hard.  Wrestler A shoots on wrestler B from neutral, for example, and wrestler B's counter to avoid being taken down is to dive for wrestler A's legs.  Once one or both ankles are secured, he waits for the stalemate call since he cannot improve.  Call it what it is...stalling.  Now, if wrestler B can improve and score, I have no problem with the technique as a precursor to securing a takedown of his own.

ok

so i dive down am legitimately trying to score, but can't get my own ankles free, the guy on top is just grabbing them and not letting me move

 

so now HE is stalling? 

[Scouts Honor]

i mean they already put in neutral back points... what more do we need? 

just call the stalemate faster

[Scouts Honor]

i was always told freestyle taught you to finish faster and cleaner...

so i mean... maybe the funk should have made us finish faster and cleaner

 

this whole: there oughta be a law mentality is what has gotten us to where we are in society